PPL Istruction on own plane
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PPL Istruction on own plane
Hi,
If a group of us were to supply our own plane, how do we go about getting instruction through our PPL(A)s.
would we have to go through a flying school or is it possible to use a freelance instructor.
This is seperate from the ground school which we are doing independently.
Many thanks
C.
If a group of us were to supply our own plane, how do we go about getting instruction through our PPL(A)s.
would we have to go through a flying school or is it possible to use a freelance instructor.
This is seperate from the ground school which we are doing independently.
Many thanks
C.
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AIUI, for the UK PPL you do have to enroll in a flying school; there is no freelance instructing possible on the PPL.
The plane needs to be either wholly owned by the student or his spouse (there is a reference to this somewhere in the ANO) or, if group owned, needs to be maintained to Transport CofA requirements. These requirements come out of the fact that the instructor will be paid. If you somehow managed to wangle it so he does the flight training for free, then the maintenance requirements are just the Private CofA ones, even if group owned.
There is no legal requirement on the ground school - you can get anybody (an experienced PPL would be a good one) to teach that, and there is no scale of charges. Whether the school you enrolled in will tolerate ground school being done by outsiders is another matter - the standard "airfield politics" thingy
The plane needs to be either wholly owned by the student or his spouse (there is a reference to this somewhere in the ANO) or, if group owned, needs to be maintained to Transport CofA requirements. These requirements come out of the fact that the instructor will be paid. If you somehow managed to wangle it so he does the flight training for free, then the maintenance requirements are just the Private CofA ones, even if group owned.
There is no legal requirement on the ground school - you can get anybody (an experienced PPL would be a good one) to teach that, and there is no scale of charges. Whether the school you enrolled in will tolerate ground school being done by outsiders is another matter - the standard "airfield politics" thingy
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PPL instruction is certainly possible for the PPL on your own aircraft, both through a school or by a freelance instructor. If the aircraft is wholly owned by the person learning (or direct family -e.g. son or daughter learning in fathers aircraft) then the maintenance to transport standard is not required. The instructor needs to be either part of or have his own FTO registration.
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You might care to take a look at a couple documents relating to Flying Tests & Flying Training/Checking dated 28th April 2008:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_680.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_681.pdf
If you can decipher the gobbledygook, I think the implication is that there is (for a year at least) some relaxation of the rules regarding flight training in your own or shared aircraft.
I've also seen a consultative document regarding flight training from unlicensed airfields which I understand has been on the cards for some time.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_680.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_681.pdf
If you can decipher the gobbledygook, I think the implication is that there is (for a year at least) some relaxation of the rules regarding flight training in your own or shared aircraft.
I've also seen a consultative document regarding flight training from unlicensed airfields which I understand has been on the cards for some time.
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Standard C of A
The 'Private' catergory C of A has gone. Some aircraft with the old private cat will be due for their 'star' this year and that will be the end of it.
Therefore the rules with regard to private catergory will be defunct. The CAA exemption for sole owners will therefore have no effect. But that won't matter.
To use the Standard Catergory aircraft for flight instruction then the last inspection of the aeroplane must have been completed by a Licensed Engineer and a Certificate of Release to Service issued. All other aspects of the aeroplane must be able to comply, such as an in-life engine (not exceeding the 20% extention).
Flying Instruction is not the public transport of passengers and therefore a Public Transport Certificate is no longer required under EASA. I cannot see therefore why a part owner cannot learn to fly on their group owned aircraft unless the condition of the aeroplane does not comply.
The rules with regard to ab-initio training only at a FTO or RTF of course applies.
Therefore the rules with regard to private catergory will be defunct. The CAA exemption for sole owners will therefore have no effect. But that won't matter.
To use the Standard Catergory aircraft for flight instruction then the last inspection of the aeroplane must have been completed by a Licensed Engineer and a Certificate of Release to Service issued. All other aspects of the aeroplane must be able to comply, such as an in-life engine (not exceeding the 20% extention).
Flying Instruction is not the public transport of passengers and therefore a Public Transport Certificate is no longer required under EASA. I cannot see therefore why a part owner cannot learn to fly on their group owned aircraft unless the condition of the aeroplane does not comply.
The rules with regard to ab-initio training only at a FTO or RTF of course applies.
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Insurance might be a problem ran across this in my training having bought a share before qualifing turned out was easier to finish in club aircraft as solo training wasnt allowed on group aircraft.
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Homeguard is right - the CofA is gone but the maintenance requirements (actual maintenance performed since the last Annual etc) have replaced the piece of paper.
JXK - interesting stuff you have found; only a few days old...
The person undergoing the said test shall be:
i) registered as the sole owner of the said aircraft;
ii) the spouse [or child] of the registered sole owner;
iii) a director of a limited company which is the registered owner of the said
aircraft; or
iv) a joint owner of the aircraft or a registered shareholder of the company which
owns the aircraft, owned in accordance with Article 162(2) of the Order;
The CAA have changed the rules again then. So, now, it is more or less anybody with a direct-family or ownership connection.
What happened to the requirement for a 5% minimum shareholding on a Private Cat? The whole reason (fairly obviously) that was put in there was to stop flying schools training in Private Cat planes.
Foxmoth:
Doesn't your 1st sentence contradict the last? If the instructor is working through an FTO (which I believe he must, though I don't have a reference for it) then he isn't 'freelance'.
A 'freelance' instructor is one who has a JAA FI rating, a CPL/BCPL so he can receive payment (IF he receives payment - may not be the case), and works entirely alone.
Can anybody think of why the FTO connection is required? It seems to serve no 'quality control' purpose.
In FAA land, a freelance instructor can do all training. Nowadays he needs to be TSA registered. Can't train ab initio FAA PPL in UK airspace though unless the student either can be PIC when solo (on some other license he already holds) or he has done the solo stuff within the conventional JAA/G-reg pipeline.
JXK - interesting stuff you have found; only a few days old...
The person undergoing the said test shall be:
i) registered as the sole owner of the said aircraft;
ii) the spouse [or child] of the registered sole owner;
iii) a director of a limited company which is the registered owner of the said
aircraft; or
iv) a joint owner of the aircraft or a registered shareholder of the company which
owns the aircraft, owned in accordance with Article 162(2) of the Order;
The CAA have changed the rules again then. So, now, it is more or less anybody with a direct-family or ownership connection.
What happened to the requirement for a 5% minimum shareholding on a Private Cat? The whole reason (fairly obviously) that was put in there was to stop flying schools training in Private Cat planes.
Foxmoth:
PPL instruction is certainly possible for the PPL on your own aircraft, both through a school or by a freelance instructor. If the aircraft is wholly owned by the person learning (or direct family -e.g. son or daughter learning in fathers aircraft) then the maintenance to transport standard is not required. The instructor needs to be either part of or have his own FTO registration.
A 'freelance' instructor is one who has a JAA FI rating, a CPL/BCPL so he can receive payment (IF he receives payment - may not be the case), and works entirely alone.
Can anybody think of why the FTO connection is required? It seems to serve no 'quality control' purpose.
In FAA land, a freelance instructor can do all training. Nowadays he needs to be TSA registered. Can't train ab initio FAA PPL in UK airspace though unless the student either can be PIC when solo (on some other license he already holds) or he has done the solo stuff within the conventional JAA/G-reg pipeline.
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Doesn't your 1st sentence contradict the last? If the instructor is working through an FTO (which I believe he must, though I don't have a reference for it) then he isn't 'freelance'.
A 'freelance' instructor is one who has a JAA FI rating, a CPL/BCPL so he can receive payment (IF he receives payment - may not be the case), and works entirely alone.
A 'freelance' instructor is one who has a JAA FI rating, a CPL/BCPL so he can receive payment (IF he receives payment - may not be the case), and works entirely alone.
Incidentally, many flying clubs also operate as Registered Facilities too. The downside is that there are some restrictions on the type of training that can be provided, e.g. training for issue of a multi-engine class rating must be done by an FTO.
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Doesn't your 1st sentence contradict the last? If the instructor is working through an FTO (which I believe he must, though I don't have a reference for it) then he isn't 'freelance'.
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OK, so reading all this I gather that an instructor can do PPL instruction on a privately owned plane with a Public CofA and insurance to cover Ab-initio training as long as he/she/it is a Registered Facility.
I own my own plane which ticks all the boxes, but I am rapidly running out of patience trying to complete my PPL because of constraints with instructors, flying school aircraft, weather and stuff.
Where do I find an instructor which will dedicate a week to help me finish my PPL on my own plane then?
I own my own plane which ticks all the boxes, but I am rapidly running out of patience trying to complete my PPL because of constraints with instructors, flying school aircraft, weather and stuff.
Where do I find an instructor which will dedicate a week to help me finish my PPL on my own plane then?
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Instructor Payment not allowed for PPL training on own a/c
Gents,
I believe that training can be conducted as above but no payment can be taken for PPL training on a club / privatley owned aircraft unless it has a public transport C of A and has been maintained as such.
The CAA have just released a document explaining (as clearly as they do) how it has to work.
Seems like madness but there we go.....
Si
F.I.
I believe that training can be conducted as above but no payment can be taken for PPL training on a club / privatley owned aircraft unless it has a public transport C of A and has been maintained as such.
The CAA have just released a document explaining (as clearly as they do) how it has to work.
Seems like madness but there we go.....
Si
F.I.
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I believe that training can be conducted as above but no payment can be taken for PPL training on a club / privatley owned aircraft unless it has a public transport C of A and has been maintained as such.
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Hi homeguard can you validate the point you made earlier in regards to
<<Flying Instruction is not the public transport of passengers and therefore a Public Transport Certificate is no longer required under EASA.>>
Is there a CAA document that explains this.
Thanks
<<Flying Instruction is not the public transport of passengers and therefore a Public Transport Certificate is no longer required under EASA.>>
Is there a CAA document that explains this.
Thanks
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Public Transport
Under the UK rules there were two Certificates of airworthiness. 'Public Transport' and 'Private'.
Flying Instructing has never been public transport but 'Ariel Work'. To undertake Ariel Work passengers could not be carried. Crew could be of course. There were many arguments as to what defined 'crew' as apposed to 'passengers'. A student pilot is clearly a member of the crew.
Ariel work could not be conducted in Private Catergory aircraft. To overcome this the CAA issued some specific 'exemptions'. Notably the sole owner of an aircraft could train in their 'private' catergory aeroplane with some provisos. But if you couldn't comply with the provisos' then you couldn't train.
Under the EASA regulations, now in force, the two Certificates are 'Standard' and 'Public Transport'. You only require to hold a Public Transport Certificate for the carriage of paying passengers. So the old understandings are defunct.
Flying Instructing has never been public transport but 'Ariel Work'. To undertake Ariel Work passengers could not be carried. Crew could be of course. There were many arguments as to what defined 'crew' as apposed to 'passengers'. A student pilot is clearly a member of the crew.
Ariel work could not be conducted in Private Catergory aircraft. To overcome this the CAA issued some specific 'exemptions'. Notably the sole owner of an aircraft could train in their 'private' catergory aeroplane with some provisos. But if you couldn't comply with the provisos' then you couldn't train.
Under the EASA regulations, now in force, the two Certificates are 'Standard' and 'Public Transport'. You only require to hold a Public Transport Certificate for the carriage of paying passengers. So the old understandings are defunct.
Under the EASA regulations, now in force, the two Certificates are 'Standard' and 'Public Transport'. You only require to hold a Public Transport Certificate for the carriage of paying passengers. So the old understandings are defunct.
What's perhaps worse is that with the introduction of EU-OPS, there is (from later this year) going to be an extra class aircraft in the ANO.
Commercial air transport aircraft are subject to EU-OPS, so they have to be excluded some of the provisions of the ANO. "Public transport aircraft" will now be all the aircraft that used to be "public transport aircraft" but don't count as commercial air transport for EU-OPS. And then there's aerial work and private as before.
So we'll live in a system that's even more complex until EASA takes over OPS for everyone and throws out the ANO provisions for all but Annex 2 aircraft.
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train on your own aircraft in Ireland under JAA regulations
Hi, planning to import aircraft from the UK on Ireland, and train for PPL under FTO operated school.
Its a Cessna 150 and will have a new EASA cert.
Is there any supporting evidence under the JAA rules that allow this type of training to occur. Some documentation I can substantiate to the FTO school when requesting an instructor for training.
Cheers.
Its a Cessna 150 and will have a new EASA cert.
Is there any supporting evidence under the JAA rules that allow this type of training to occur. Some documentation I can substantiate to the FTO school when requesting an instructor for training.
Cheers.
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So presumably an aircraft with an EASA standard certificate can be used for flying instruction at present provided also it is maintained/operated iaw the ANO, while that remains in force. Is that what Homeguard and Bookworm are effectively saying beween them? Anyone point to the relevant bits of the ANO?