Blackpool crash, moral issues
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,275
Likes: 21
From: London
Blackpool crash, moral issues
On the forum for private flying (non-airline) is the thread about the Blackpool disaster.
The discussion there concentrates for now on the moral pressure having possibly been put on the P1 which could have contributed to the bad decisionmaking of the P1.
especially Frontlefthamster is strongly of the opinion that these contributory factors were such that he expects/hopes that the coroner will point towards these outside factors as a main factor
I believe that instructors/examiners/CFI's should discuss here both the sign out procedures at their clubs (who was P1?) as well as the training of what means P1 (responsibilities AND authorities) as well as pressures put on students by clubs/CFI's which could result in bad decision making by students.
Lets open that can of worms here, not on the private flying chapter, as I strongly believe there we should continue to impress the finality of being p1 to pilots so that they may continue to or improve in taking charge of their flights
I am a private pilot, not an instructor, so i ll leave it to you
The discussion there concentrates for now on the moral pressure having possibly been put on the P1 which could have contributed to the bad decisionmaking of the P1.
especially Frontlefthamster is strongly of the opinion that these contributory factors were such that he expects/hopes that the coroner will point towards these outside factors as a main factor
I believe that instructors/examiners/CFI's should discuss here both the sign out procedures at their clubs (who was P1?) as well as the training of what means P1 (responsibilities AND authorities) as well as pressures put on students by clubs/CFI's which could result in bad decision making by students.
Lets open that can of worms here, not on the private flying chapter, as I strongly believe there we should continue to impress the finality of being p1 to pilots so that they may continue to or improve in taking charge of their flights
I am a private pilot, not an instructor, so i ll leave it to you
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: UK
Very simply. That flight should never have flown. The CFI was culpable. Technically you may be able to blame the lad, though I as yet am not sure I believe he considered himself to be P1 that day. Morally the CFI should be struggling with his principles, though the fact he sanctioned the flight in the conditions he did, I doubt he is.
Legally the accident happened on the second flight, so legally someone in that aircraft was to blame. Fortunately operations like the FTO involved are few and far between. The place in infamous in the region.
Personally I have never worked at a place that would have let that flight go in one of their aircraft.
LF
Legally the accident happened on the second flight, so legally someone in that aircraft was to blame. Fortunately operations like the FTO involved are few and far between. The place in infamous in the region.
Personally I have never worked at a place that would have let that flight go in one of their aircraft.
LF
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,275
Likes: 21
From: London
who knows of clubs where planes are booked out without knowing who the P1 is?
who knows of clubs where low hour club members are sent on marginal flying errands?
who knows of clubs where members are sent out in planes which are not legally serviceable?
who knows of clubs where low hour club members are sent on marginal flying errands?
who knows of clubs where members are sent out in planes which are not legally serviceable?
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,018
Likes: 73
From: Pewsey, UK
There was some discussion a while back about this accident in 2004. Similar themes apply, IMO, about supervision of low time pilots.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
From: Right here
This is downright pathetic.
Students need to be supervised. Low time pilots are not, should not be, and can not be supervised.
Simple point 1: The commander is PIC. As a PPL, you are always unsupervised; nobody else is responsible for any of your actions. Ever. In that regard, the task of a PPL is more difficult than that of a fresh airliner pilot; you are PIC from day one. It is imperative that this is understood.
Simple point 2: You don't fly VFR in IMC (Special VFR excluded...).
Simple point 3: You follow the regulations concerning fuel planning on cross country flights.
Simple point 4: You follow the regulations regarding weight and balance.
It is by keeping the above points simple that you avoid accidents. When one starts arguing that "it is not that simple", one is not explaining the previous accident; one is contributing to the next one.
Students need to be supervised. Low time pilots are not, should not be, and can not be supervised.
Simple point 1: The commander is PIC. As a PPL, you are always unsupervised; nobody else is responsible for any of your actions. Ever. In that regard, the task of a PPL is more difficult than that of a fresh airliner pilot; you are PIC from day one. It is imperative that this is understood.
Simple point 2: You don't fly VFR in IMC (Special VFR excluded...).
Simple point 3: You follow the regulations concerning fuel planning on cross country flights.
Simple point 4: You follow the regulations regarding weight and balance.
It is by keeping the above points simple that you avoid accidents. When one starts arguing that "it is not that simple", one is not explaining the previous accident; one is contributing to the next one.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,275
Likes: 21
From: London
lets have these discussions about PIC and IMC under the private flying heading where many pages have already been filled.
this thread was to concentrate on obligations/methods of operations of clubs/schools/fbo's in the light of the blackpool disaster, not to double up the other thread
for now however slow response..... Come on guys lets have your opinions!
Thx
this thread was to concentrate on obligations/methods of operations of clubs/schools/fbo's in the light of the blackpool disaster, not to double up the other thread
for now however slow response..... Come on guys lets have your opinions!
Thx
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 214
Likes: 1
From: Washington, DC
It is worth noting that friends/family/colleagues of those either dead or being alleged to have been negligent read these pages so restraint, no matter how strong ones feelings, is prudent.
As a current military jet pilot, aircraft owner and someone who'll be doing the FIC this summer (military flying unfortunately comes to an end at some stage) it might be worth thinking about and comparing the differences between a civilian flying club and what could be considered the same, a military flying club (i.e. a squadron.)
On a squadron, every pilot independent of rank or experience has a series of flying checks mandated. Each year the military pilot does an IR, a QFI check and a host of other minor checks. For the more junior pilots, the frequency of the flying checks is 6 monthly even though they have passed out of their training unit (or, let's say, passed their PPL and are considered 'low time.')
But the question on this thread is of governance on the day. On a military squadron, each pilot is either a self authoriser or requires authorisation (equivalent of the new PPL or student for simplicities sake.)
But the responsibility for aircraft flying on the squadron is very much a team effort. The duty pilot (duty FI?) is responsible for checking weather and critically ensuring that last minute sanity checks are completed such that each member of a formation is current, qualified and fit to fly the sortie planned. Indeed, that the sortie itself is sensible.
If a flying club is simply a place where all responsibility is devolved to the low time PPL whose decision making can not be as sagely as a high time FI; whose safety net doesn't exist because there's no structure to take responsibility for checking that those about to fly aircraft are fit to do so then there is truly a deep rooted flaw in the supervision and duty of care afforded to new pilots.
Any pilot turning up to fly an aircraft, military or civilian, needs to be checked and quizzed about what they are about to do and most importantly the contingencies should things not go to plan. Pressure to deliver or get to a specific location in unsuitable conditions is one thing; not having had anyone take a view on that in the first place to help remove that pressure is not something the military flying world accepts.
My reciprocal question would be along the lines of club rules. If, let's say, a PPL with 100hrs TT books an aircraft to fly on the saturday, is it standard practice for that pilot to find the duty FI, talk through what they're going to do, talk NOTAMs, weather, diversion etc.
Or do people turn up, take the keys and go flying with no third party comment?
As a current military jet pilot, aircraft owner and someone who'll be doing the FIC this summer (military flying unfortunately comes to an end at some stage) it might be worth thinking about and comparing the differences between a civilian flying club and what could be considered the same, a military flying club (i.e. a squadron.)
On a squadron, every pilot independent of rank or experience has a series of flying checks mandated. Each year the military pilot does an IR, a QFI check and a host of other minor checks. For the more junior pilots, the frequency of the flying checks is 6 monthly even though they have passed out of their training unit (or, let's say, passed their PPL and are considered 'low time.')
But the question on this thread is of governance on the day. On a military squadron, each pilot is either a self authoriser or requires authorisation (equivalent of the new PPL or student for simplicities sake.)
But the responsibility for aircraft flying on the squadron is very much a team effort. The duty pilot (duty FI?) is responsible for checking weather and critically ensuring that last minute sanity checks are completed such that each member of a formation is current, qualified and fit to fly the sortie planned. Indeed, that the sortie itself is sensible.
If a flying club is simply a place where all responsibility is devolved to the low time PPL whose decision making can not be as sagely as a high time FI; whose safety net doesn't exist because there's no structure to take responsibility for checking that those about to fly aircraft are fit to do so then there is truly a deep rooted flaw in the supervision and duty of care afforded to new pilots.
Any pilot turning up to fly an aircraft, military or civilian, needs to be checked and quizzed about what they are about to do and most importantly the contingencies should things not go to plan. Pressure to deliver or get to a specific location in unsuitable conditions is one thing; not having had anyone take a view on that in the first place to help remove that pressure is not something the military flying world accepts.
My reciprocal question would be along the lines of club rules. If, let's say, a PPL with 100hrs TT books an aircraft to fly on the saturday, is it standard practice for that pilot to find the duty FI, talk through what they're going to do, talk NOTAMs, weather, diversion etc.
Or do people turn up, take the keys and go flying with no third party comment?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,275
Likes: 21
From: London
FB11
There is mostly an informal situation where one would turn up, share his plans (if he so wishes) with other pilots there or Ops of the club.
Often these people will volunteer information (don t forget to talk to so and so cos i heard their gliding is active), clubs will have a pc or printed weather board, the pilot signs out, sometimes does his flight planning at the club and MAY check this with Ops or the local CFI if available
Most clubs DO keep tabs on how recently the pilot has flown and when booking in for a flight, the CFI or Ops MAY suggest a check ride
But my experience is that most clubs do NOT check the full flight planning of the licensed PPL.
It is also a matter of cost. Once the PPL is licensed and providing he is current, he flies..... To suggest a backoffice suitable for full supervision of PPL flights would be unaffordable and would reduce the independence of the pilot to the point where GA could possibly die....
My lesson from Blackpool so far is that perhaps during training more attention should be given to the responsibilities and authority of the PIC, inclusive perhaps of a complete pre flight check list.
Whilst the service of a backoffice would be great if one could afford it, it seems to me we need to concentrate on the PIC himself for now.
Another help could be the development of good club integrated software which would include pilot currency (web-based in case people fly in multiple clubs?), flight planning with integrated weather, fuel and VFR log generating of frequencies, perhaps even flagging up flight planning in class airspace or danger areas/prohibited inclusive of notams. I have no idea of such software exists and/or is used by clubs
Thank you for your contribution, btw !!!!
There is mostly an informal situation where one would turn up, share his plans (if he so wishes) with other pilots there or Ops of the club.
Often these people will volunteer information (don t forget to talk to so and so cos i heard their gliding is active), clubs will have a pc or printed weather board, the pilot signs out, sometimes does his flight planning at the club and MAY check this with Ops or the local CFI if available
Most clubs DO keep tabs on how recently the pilot has flown and when booking in for a flight, the CFI or Ops MAY suggest a check ride
But my experience is that most clubs do NOT check the full flight planning of the licensed PPL.
It is also a matter of cost. Once the PPL is licensed and providing he is current, he flies..... To suggest a backoffice suitable for full supervision of PPL flights would be unaffordable and would reduce the independence of the pilot to the point where GA could possibly die....
My lesson from Blackpool so far is that perhaps during training more attention should be given to the responsibilities and authority of the PIC, inclusive perhaps of a complete pre flight check list.
Whilst the service of a backoffice would be great if one could afford it, it seems to me we need to concentrate on the PIC himself for now.
Another help could be the development of good club integrated software which would include pilot currency (web-based in case people fly in multiple clubs?), flight planning with integrated weather, fuel and VFR log generating of frequencies, perhaps even flagging up flight planning in class airspace or danger areas/prohibited inclusive of notams. I have no idea of such software exists and/or is used by clubs
Thank you for your contribution, btw !!!!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
From: UK
bjornhall
Answer to simple point 1 :
You can be supervised when you hold a PPL. Night rating training is an example.
The tasks of PPL recreational flying and airline pilots are completely different. Its a ridiculous comparison you made.
Answer to simple point 2:
How can you fly special VFR in IMC.
You can be supervised when you hold a PPL. Night rating training is an example.
The tasks of PPL recreational flying and airline pilots are completely different. Its a ridiculous comparison you made.
Answer to simple point 2:
How can you fly special VFR in IMC.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
From: Location: Location:
The only moral issues that need to be discussed here are the ones around this FTO. This accident has been waiting to happen for a considerable length of time. Lord knows how it hasn't happened sooner.
Both myself and long final have been privy to some stupid antics by this FTO. If you do not know this outfit its Very Difficult to properly assess how this accident came to be.
Ironically I personally feel that there is no way that this lad would have set off from Exeter without gassing up, he must have been dissuaded by the "more experienced" other chap.
The only thing Andrew is guilty of is picking the cheapest flying school on the field without checking the reputation of the people involved.
As I say to my boss when its time to pay for the sim training - cheap training can be very expensive.....
Both myself and long final have been privy to some stupid antics by this FTO. If you do not know this outfit its Very Difficult to properly assess how this accident came to be.
Ironically I personally feel that there is no way that this lad would have set off from Exeter without gassing up, he must have been dissuaded by the "more experienced" other chap.
The only thing Andrew is guilty of is picking the cheapest flying school on the field without checking the reputation of the people involved.
As I say to my boss when its time to pay for the sim training - cheap training can be very expensive.....
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
From: UK
If a PPL is doing a Night Rating then all flying he/she is doing for the issue of that rating is as P/UT, except where they are authorised by the instructor to fly solo to get the 5 solo full stops. Whilst carrying out all this training, including the solo part, they are to be regarded as a student not a PPL. And hence they require to be supervised and authorised as such. IE the night rating student cannot self authorise any of the flying - the FI has to sign the authorisation for the flight in the tech log.
The points made about maintaining VMC, fuel planning, performance/weight and balance are very valid. They are the responsibility of the aircraft commander as laid down in the relevant sections of the ANO.
The club environment is one thing but you also have those who own aircraft privately as individuals or in groups who are going to fly outside the auspices of a club. I have seen all manner of things going all with group aircraft in my limited time as an FI, but they are privately owned and operated and the will be flown and operated as the group and individual P1's see fit and FI's and flying clubs around the airfield cannot be expected to have any sort of duty of care over what they do. All we can do is offer advice, which is very often not wanted, when we as FI's see things going on that shouldn't be.
The points made about maintaining VMC, fuel planning, performance/weight and balance are very valid. They are the responsibility of the aircraft commander as laid down in the relevant sections of the ANO.
The club environment is one thing but you also have those who own aircraft privately as individuals or in groups who are going to fly outside the auspices of a club. I have seen all manner of things going all with group aircraft in my limited time as an FI, but they are privately owned and operated and the will be flown and operated as the group and individual P1's see fit and FI's and flying clubs around the airfield cannot be expected to have any sort of duty of care over what they do. All we can do is offer advice, which is very often not wanted, when we as FI's see things going on that shouldn't be.
Last edited by timzsta; 4th May 2008 at 19:53.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
From: London
Intresting thread flying on a NPPL I booked an aircraft at my local club and as I hadnt flown since late Feb booked an instructor for a quick check ride (according to club could have gone without 1) anyway logbook ckeck turns out that due to a quirk in the NPPL rules my licience was invalid. No one was sure despite everyone reading regs etc took a phone call to NPPL ppl to be sure. Its the 6 hours in last 12 rolling months requirement. Was only out by 2 weeks if it had been 13 months would have been fine. The downside had to redo the skills test 
but nice club only charged me for a biannaual check 
nice ppl. The moral is I didnt know I was illegal and if I hadnt booked a check ride the club would have given me the keys as I was allready checked out there.
but nice club only charged me for a biannaual check nice ppl. The moral is I didnt know I was illegal and if I hadnt booked a check ride the club would have given me the keys as I was allready checked out there.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
FB11,
Excellent post; many thanks. I entirely agree that...
Yet that is what happens. Sure, in some places FIs give informal advice, but that's all. And often that advice is plain wrong! And sometimes new PPLs don't even get that.
Many years ago, as a very new PPL(A), I booked an aircraft to fly from my home airfield to one with a much shorter grass runway with obstacles at either end. I'd never landed on grass, there was no wind at all, the grass was soaking wet, and I took full fuel! I checked take-off distances etc, and they seemed OK...but did I allow for my total lack of experience? Not at all. I asked around before I left. But nobody, nobody, pointed out that maybe I needed either a better day or more experience or less fuel or all of the above. They said it was my decision, and to go for it. I did, and survived the trip...but can you imagine the AAIB report if I hadn't?
I, like Andrew, and like many, had been guilty of one thing, ...
Incidentally, this flying school is long gone.
It happens, too often. Most of us survive, but how many don't?
Excellent post; many thanks. I entirely agree that...
If a flying club is simply a place where all responsibility is devolved to the low time PPL whose decision making can not be as sagely as a high time FI; whose safety net doesn't exist because there's no structure to take responsibility for checking that those about to fly aircraft are fit to do so then there is truly a deep rooted flaw in the supervision and duty of care afforded to new pilots.
Many years ago, as a very new PPL(A), I booked an aircraft to fly from my home airfield to one with a much shorter grass runway with obstacles at either end. I'd never landed on grass, there was no wind at all, the grass was soaking wet, and I took full fuel! I checked take-off distances etc, and they seemed OK...but did I allow for my total lack of experience? Not at all. I asked around before I left. But nobody, nobody, pointed out that maybe I needed either a better day or more experience or less fuel or all of the above. They said it was my decision, and to go for it. I did, and survived the trip...but can you imagine the AAIB report if I hadn't?
I, like Andrew, and like many, had been guilty of one thing, ...
picking the cheapest flying school on the field without checking the reputation of the people involved.
It happens, too often. Most of us survive, but how many don't?
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Most prospective students have no idea how to pick a "good" flying school, and I would not expect them to. One has to do an awful lot of due diligence to check out good and bad instructors; checking how long the school has been trading is easy enough but only if you know how to check company records.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,092
Likes: 10
From: uk
Its irresponsible of a experienced flying instructor not to give sound advice to inexperienced or experienced pilots.
Within a flying club the CFI as ultimate say as to wether someone goes flying or not, if only to protect the clubs investment in aircraft.
Remember when they sign up memebership, its to abide by the club rules as per flying order book.
The biggest dilema is when you see a Private owner venture off on a suicide mission, with total disregard, as i have recently experienced.
Within a flying club the CFI as ultimate say as to wether someone goes flying or not, if only to protect the clubs investment in aircraft.
Remember when they sign up memebership, its to abide by the club rules as per flying order book.
The biggest dilema is when you see a Private owner venture off on a suicide mission, with total disregard, as i have recently experienced.
