How many BCPL holders out there?
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From: BERKSHIRE
How many BCPL holders out there?
After attending an AOPA update presentation last month.
I wondered how many BCPL holders are out there now the CAA has bent over and been shafted again by JAR to phase these "Regional Licences" out?
Why is it that only GA seems to suffer the fate of wasted personal investment only to be told years later that the "rules " have changed.
Any other walk of life would have Smarmy Chakrebati defending the infrigmnets of HUMAN RIGHTS abuse!!!
I wondered how many BCPL holders are out there now the CAA has bent over and been shafted again by JAR to phase these "Regional Licences" out?
Why is it that only GA seems to suffer the fate of wasted personal investment only to be told years later that the "rules " have changed.
Any other walk of life would have Smarmy Chakrebati defending the infrigmnets of HUMAN RIGHTS abuse!!!
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
134 BCPL Restricted holders.
How many BCPL holders who obtained their licence by taking the CPL axams and passing the CPL GFT? An I the only one left? Is it in my interests to upgrade to a CPL, which I beleive I can now do, but it'll cost me money, presumably?
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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From: BERKSHIRE
That's the point, people take the pain and should be able to take advantage of the gain.
Interestingly enough the FRENCH will be allowed to keep their regional licence; the 20 hour SPL licence similar to our NPL, but we will lose the IMC and BCPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We do not seem to have any friends in the CAA or the Government.
I fear that, UK GA will be just a memory in the not to distant future.
Interestingly enough the FRENCH will be allowed to keep their regional licence; the 20 hour SPL licence similar to our NPL, but we will lose the IMC and BCPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We do not seem to have any friends in the CAA or the Government.
I fear that, UK GA will be just a memory in the not to distant future.
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
The 20 hr French 'brevet de basse' is NOTHING like the NPPL!
Yes, the MDM032 people have yielded to Les Grenouilles and their 'brevet de suicide'....
Personally I would reject anything the MDM032 people propose out of hand. Let's keep sub-ICAO licences under national, not €urocratic, control and restrict such licences to UK, not EU airspace.
We worked tirelessly for years to refine the NPPL; now it seems that it will die thanks to EASA. Microlighters who want credit towards flying SSEA aircraft as you now can under NPPL terms? You can forget that under EASA.
Whopity is entirely correct - Brown and his gang of traitors signed us over to Europe without a referendum. The CAA is powerless against such treachery.
Yes, the MDM032 people have yielded to Les Grenouilles and their 'brevet de suicide'....
Personally I would reject anything the MDM032 people propose out of hand. Let's keep sub-ICAO licences under national, not €urocratic, control and restrict such licences to UK, not EU airspace.
We worked tirelessly for years to refine the NPPL; now it seems that it will die thanks to EASA. Microlighters who want credit towards flying SSEA aircraft as you now can under NPPL terms? You can forget that under EASA.
Whopity is entirely correct - Brown and his gang of traitors signed us over to Europe without a referendum. The CAA is powerless against such treachery.
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From: UK
Anyone with a BCPL (unrestricted) can upgrade it to a JAR CPL Restricted and assuming they have 700 hours they can unrestrict it straight away. All they need is 5 hours dual in a complex aircraft and a Prof check on that aircraft with a CPL FE. Not sure how many of these there are now, as I was more interested in the numbers holding the Restricted version.
Interestingly, if you analyse the situation the BCPL(R) holder originally held a PPL and FI rating; that's exactly what they will finish up with under EASA so nothing lost nothing gained! In fact, they are in exactly the same position as all the Helicopter FIs who continued to operate on a PPL (there was no BCPL for Helicopters) and there are more of them! Assuming they are allowed to continue to be remunerated on a PPL (grandfather rights) is there really an issue other than a loss of imaginary status? The bigger issue is the loss of the lifetime PPL and IMC.
Interestingly, if you analyse the situation the BCPL(R) holder originally held a PPL and FI rating; that's exactly what they will finish up with under EASA so nothing lost nothing gained! In fact, they are in exactly the same position as all the Helicopter FIs who continued to operate on a PPL (there was no BCPL for Helicopters) and there are more of them! Assuming they are allowed to continue to be remunerated on a PPL (grandfather rights) is there really an issue other than a loss of imaginary status? The bigger issue is the loss of the lifetime PPL and IMC.
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
All they need is 5 hours dual in a complex aircraft and a Prof check on that aircraft with a CPL FE.
That's about £1500 quid, - 6 weeks wages. I'd better start saving.
I think I'll wait until I HAVE to change, thanks. I don't want to do anything but instruct at the moment, anyway.
Cheers,
TOO
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From: BERKSHIRE
Thanks the ODDONE, some people just miss the point.
That is probably the powers that be view as well.
"Oh well they will just have to convert" sod the expense.
They already changed the goal posts last year by insisting on a Class 1 for renewal when a Class 2 was only needed when the BCPL was introduced under grandfather rights. And as all initials need to be done at Ivory Towers Gatwick it meant another £400 even though one had renewed a class 2 at £150!!
I am sure they think we are all made of money
That is probably the powers that be view as well.
"Oh well they will just have to convert" sod the expense.
They already changed the goal posts last year by insisting on a Class 1 for renewal when a Class 2 was only needed when the BCPL was introduced under grandfather rights. And as all initials need to be done at Ivory Towers Gatwick it meant another £400 even though one had renewed a class 2 at £150!!
I am sure they think we are all made of money
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Why not combine with an MEP Course and get better value from it?
On the face of it a good suggestion, but I've never ventured toward twins for several reasons.
1. I've always felt you need to be REALLY current to be safe in a twin. Even if I'd got the rating, I'd never have the chance to keep it up to my satisfaction. I've been of the view that you're safer in a single at average utilisation rates i.e. 20-30 hours a year.
2. As an instructor, there's simply no work around our way for a twin-rated FI. I know of one person who is and he's hardly able to keep up his own skills, spends most of his time in singles anyway. Twin flying seems to be in decline, with PPLs anyway.
3. I think that the future lies with the higher-performance singles, Cirrus for the PPL and the PC12 for Public Transport 6-9 seat operation (surely the CAA will FINALLY recognise that these a/c are as safe as if not safer than most twins?)
We have the use of an Arrow IV which I have flown Pu/t but it's quite expensive to do a rating on just to upgrade my licence as a paperwork exercise. I wouldn't choose it for my own personal flying - I'd rather go a little slower and enjoy the view at a much cheaper rate.
Of course if someone were to pay for me to do the rating, then that'd be another matter. Dream on...
TheOddOne
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: UK
Brevet de Base
Interestingly enough the FRENCH will be allowed to keep their regional licence
Yes, the MDM032 people have yielded to Les Grenouilles and their 'brevet de suicide'....
"it will most probably be [scrapped]"
But I guess the magazin is already a month old.
'brevet de suicide'
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From: channel islands
BCPL-JAR CPL questions
Anyone know what exactly is involved in the prof check required in the BCPL - JAR CPL conversion? and the amount the examiner would charge? Know of an examiner who has experience in this topic? Is the prof check like the full initial commercial skills test? CAA don't know these answers!
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From: exmouth
Cueeffee
I've recently done exactly that (BCPL JAR CPL conversion). I had to show the 5 hrs on a complex type which as it was so long ago in a long misplaced logbook I had to get an afidavit to swear I had the relevant hours, then I had to do a LPC in a complex type (LPC must be in the last 12 months so the CAA told me). Then it was a case of sending a big fat cheque to the CAA and the licence arrived a couple of weeks later. Oh yes and a current class one medical at the time of application.
I've recently done exactly that (BCPL JAR CPL conversion). I had to show the 5 hrs on a complex type which as it was so long ago in a long misplaced logbook I had to get an afidavit to swear I had the relevant hours, then I had to do a LPC in a complex type (LPC must be in the last 12 months so the CAA told me). Then it was a case of sending a big fat cheque to the CAA and the licence arrived a couple of weeks later. Oh yes and a current class one medical at the time of application.
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From: channel islands
Smnbly
Thanks for that - was the LPC reasonable humane? or like doing the original Skills test for proff licence issue? any idea what the LPC charge usually is? and lastly - is there any advantage to keeping the BCPL and as well as the JAR CPL? Where did you do yours? - Thanks!
Thanks for that - was the LPC reasonable humane? or like doing the original Skills test for proff licence issue? any idea what the LPC charge usually is? and lastly - is there any advantage to keeping the BCPL and as well as the JAR CPL? Where did you do yours? - Thanks!
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From: UK
Is the prof check like the full initial commercial skills test?
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From: exmouth
LPC very straight forward just basic handling nothing too strenuous! I did mine with Mike Beeston at Exeter, excellant chap and very helpfull , he does his best to fit the test around you, but he is very busy. The test does have to be with an FIE if memory serves me right. I couldn't see any benefit in keeping the old licence as the new licence covers all of its priveliges. Cost wise, as usual, most expensive thing the aircraft which worked out at about £140 for the test. Examiners fee can be found on the CAA website as they charge a standard amount (but don't quote me!). Well worth doing though in my opinion before the EASA thing takes real hold and you find you have a worthless licence with possibly no way of upgrading. At least the bridge from old to new still exists at present
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From: Oz
I;m an Ausie and have allway been confused by British licence terminogy.
What is the diference between a CPL and a BCPL
Whats an IMC rating, is it like an IFR rating?
What do they mean by the self improver route?
Can one go from a commercial license hru instructing/charter etc then land a job with the airlines or are you only able to do that hrough sponsored abinitio airline cadet route.
What is the diference between a CPL and a BCPL
Whats an IMC rating, is it like an IFR rating?
What do they mean by the self improver route?
Can one go from a commercial license hru instructing/charter etc then land a job with the airlines or are you only able to do that hrough sponsored abinitio airline cadet route.
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
I;m an Ausie and have allway been confused by British licence terminogy.
Back in time, when life was simple, you could have a British (sorry, UK) PPL, then a CPL then an ATPL. You needed 700 hours to get a CPL. Whilst a lucky few got taken on as cadets by an airline, most folk get a PPL, then an instructor's rating in order to get paid a bit while they accumulated the 700 hours and did their self-study for the exams. By that time, they were reasonably good at flying and the CPL flight test was usually conducted in the type they were earning a living on, not a problem.
THEN, someone decided that you can't have people being paid to fly (i.e. instruct) without a Commercial licence so a rule was made that instructors had to hold a CPL. Now, a reality check was made - we had loads of instructors who would be out of work and effectively flying training for PPL would vanish. Sooo... a typical British compromise was dreamed up. All these PPL instructors (some with huge experience and many thousands of instructional hours) were 'given' a CPL without taking a test or passing any exams. This was labelled the 'Basic Commercial Pilot's Licence'. Having dreamed up this licence to pass on as 'grandfather' rights, it was decided that any new instructors who didn't want to get a full-blown ATPL could also get a BCPL by doing the CPL exams and passing the CPL flight test. Having done that, you could THEN go on to do the Instructor course.
With me so far? Right. We now have TWO groups of BCPL holders: those who had them dished out 'cos they were instructing on a PPL and those who did all the CPL stuff, only at 150 hours instead of 700 hours. I'm in thet latter group, by the way.
You could also get a BCPL on a less stringent medical; we used to have 3 classes of medical in the UK, Class 3 for PPLs, class 2 for BCPL holders and Class 1 for Air Traffic Controllers and airline pilots. 26 years ago, I was told I couldn't get a class 1, now I can, too late for an airline job but now I'm learning how to be an instructor. (On-the-job training - marvellous!)
It was further felt that the holder of any kind of commercial licence ought to be able to fly by sole reference to instruments, so you have to have a current IMC rating to hold a BCPL (see below for the IMC rating!!!) Most of my instructor colleagues have frozen ATPLs (i.e. they've done all the exams and flight test, but haven't got the hours yet). I stand to be corrected, but I don't think they have to have a current IR in order to instruct, whereas I believe that I have to keep my IMC up to keep my BCPL and thus my instructor rating valid.
Ratings and licences.
A licence is the basic bedrock document. In order to exercise it, you have to have some kind of RATING, such as Single Engine Piston (SEP) Multi (MEP) Flight Instructor (FI), Instrument Rating (IR) etc. For instance, you do your PPL on a Cessna 152 and get a SEP ADDED to your PPL on inital issue. You can then ADD further ratings to it. If you move up to flying 747's on an ATPL licence, and get the appropriate ratings for that and want to fly a C152 on your days off, you still need to keep up your SEP rating as a separate deal.
Now, IMC and IR.
The Instrument Rating entitles the holder to fly a suitably equipped aircraft in controlled airspace by sole reference to instruments. Obtaining this rating for ordinary folk is hugely expensive and time-consuming and a major challenge for the mind.
With our typical British weather, many years ago wise heads thought it would be a good idea to teach PPLs a bit more about how to avoid bad weather and how to get safely out of it if you flew into cloud. Thus the Instrument Meteorological Rating was born. It allows you to fly by sole reference to instruments OUTSIDE controlled air space (CAS) and on a few occasions inside CAS, to land at some airports with suitable instrument procedures (and a few other occasions as well). It's NOT a cut-down Instrument Rating, though I know some people who think it is and use it as such. It has been tremendously successful and holders of the IMC have a fantastic safety record - only one accident as far as we know where an IMC rated pilot has flown into a hill in cloud in the past 40 years. The IMC course is at least 15 hours and a 90 minute test, ground school and an exam. Easily do-able on weekends or days off, you don't have to take weeks and weeks off work to do it. It is only valid in the UK, it magically evaporates half-way across the English Channel. On the other hand, it turns back on again if you're coming back from France in dodgy weather!
On the occasions where I've used the rating, I've mostly called up for a Radar service; you don't have to file a flight plan to do this, just call and tell 'em what you're doing and where you're going and they'll keep you advised of traffic that shows up on their 'scope.
There are hardly any airline cadets any more. You either scrape the money together (or borrow it) to get a frozen ATPL then instruct to get the hours (the self-improver route) or you get your parents to buy you the full course (integrated course). There are enough of the latter to save the airlines having to spend out on training pilots themselves.
Any more questions, please ask!
TheOddOne
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Oz
Odd One,
Many thanks for your well thought out reply, finally makes sense to me now.
Hmmm controlled airspace, now thats a small part I could never work out from the charts. About 10 years ago I did a few hrs dual in a Duchess ou of Newcastle upon Tyne to have a look at the way things are done over there but couldnt work out where contolled airspace was on the charts, apart from the TMA's.
Here in Oz, class C (controlled airspace) is like an upside down wedding cake, the steps get higher and higher as you go out. 50 nm out from a capital city airport means you can in some cases fly at 18,000 ft in class G airspace, and also track from nav aid to nav aid as listed on an IFR chart. Just be at a VFR level.
But i believe over there, controllled airspace goeas down quite low and follows tracks between navaids. (Airways). So how does one cross an airway if VFR and the airway goes quite low.
Many thanks for your well thought out reply, finally makes sense to me now.
Hmmm controlled airspace, now thats a small part I could never work out from the charts. About 10 years ago I did a few hrs dual in a Duchess ou of Newcastle upon Tyne to have a look at the way things are done over there but couldnt work out where contolled airspace was on the charts, apart from the TMA's.
Here in Oz, class C (controlled airspace) is like an upside down wedding cake, the steps get higher and higher as you go out. 50 nm out from a capital city airport means you can in some cases fly at 18,000 ft in class G airspace, and also track from nav aid to nav aid as listed on an IFR chart. Just be at a VFR level.
But i believe over there, controllled airspace goeas down quite low and follows tracks between navaids. (Airways). So how does one cross an airway if VFR and the airway goes quite low.
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From: uk
"cueeffee" - I agree with "smnbly" that it is relatively painless converting the frozen CPL to a full CPL and worth doing before it all gets even more complicated.
I did mine with Annabel Winter at Stapleford. I already had the hours so just needed a refresher flight and then the proficiency check. She was extremely helpful and worth contacting.
Have fun !
I did mine with Annabel Winter at Stapleford. I already had the hours so just needed a refresher flight and then the proficiency check. She was extremely helpful and worth contacting.
Have fun !
