Blasting up through a deck for some training
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Planet Earth
Blasting up through a deck for some training
Hey guys,
I had a friend who was CFI, and he was telling me that when he worked out in California the Marine layer was quite a problem, so he would file IFR and then blast up through a deck with a student and do the PPL training above the clouds, like slow flight, steep turns, stalls etc... and the return for landing...
K, how is this done? Do you just file to another airport or clearance limit fix, and then once you are on top either go VFR and pick up and IFR back in or get a block or what? Are you going to get bitched at by ATC for trying to pull a stunt like this?
Thanks
I had a friend who was CFI, and he was telling me that when he worked out in California the Marine layer was quite a problem, so he would file IFR and then blast up through a deck with a student and do the PPL training above the clouds, like slow flight, steep turns, stalls etc... and the return for landing...
K, how is this done? Do you just file to another airport or clearance limit fix, and then once you are on top either go VFR and pick up and IFR back in or get a block or what? Are you going to get bitched at by ATC for trying to pull a stunt like this?
Thanks
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Cranfield UK
Hi, so we are both on planet earth! I suspect that you are in USA with some different rules to here in UK. However, if a licence allows flight out of sight of the surface and the instructor rating allows instrument training there is no problem but if the only qualification is for VFR and not being rated as instrument conditions instructor then presumably there is a private, or public transport element that may be illegal depending on who pays for what?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Planet Earth
Greetings fellow earth dweller!
Sorry I should have specified... I am a CFII, and I occasionally will have students who need to do some air work on days when the weather is less than marginal VFR down towards the ground. My buddy would take his students and file then take them up above the deck and do his training flight up there and then shoot the ILS back into the main airport. I was pretty much confused as heck, as to exactly how he went about this. I didn't know if he got up on top where the vis was greater than 3SM and maintained 1,000 cloud clearance at all times, and did the training. I mean if the tops are at 3,000 this should be no problem. Then just picked up a clearance in the air and dropped back down and shot the ILS in...
Sorry I should have specified... I am a CFII, and I occasionally will have students who need to do some air work on days when the weather is less than marginal VFR down towards the ground. My buddy would take his students and file then take them up above the deck and do his training flight up there and then shoot the ILS back into the main airport. I was pretty much confused as heck, as to exactly how he went about this. I didn't know if he got up on top where the vis was greater than 3SM and maintained 1,000 cloud clearance at all times, and did the training. I mean if the tops are at 3,000 this should be no problem. Then just picked up a clearance in the air and dropped back down and shot the ILS in...
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: San Diego, California
Blasting up through a deck for some training
The marine layer during the “May Grey, June Gloom” days here in Southern California is very shallow and does not normally extend inland more than a few miles. The airport can be below VFR early in the morning, however 5 miles east of the airport it is severe clear. With a very good chance of the departure airport being VFR mid morning as the temperature dew point spread increases as the day rapidly warms up.
The FAA private certificate requires 3 hours of flight by reference to instruments so if the CFI is a II as well the minute or two of actual is a good learning experience for the student. I wouldn’t do this early in the training but have after the student has soloed. It also teaches them what actual is really like, which one can’t achieve with foggles etc.
The file is for IFR to VFR on top to a near by airport of fix and then cancel when on top. Remember here the transition altitude is18,000 so lots of sky above to play with once above the overcast. If the airport is still below VFR after the lesson one can get a pop up clearance from Approach Control and shoot an instrument approach back into the airport. And no the controllers don’t mind, they are a really friendly bunch here.
The FAA private certificate requires 3 hours of flight by reference to instruments so if the CFI is a II as well the minute or two of actual is a good learning experience for the student. I wouldn’t do this early in the training but have after the student has soloed. It also teaches them what actual is really like, which one can’t achieve with foggles etc.
The file is for IFR to VFR on top to a near by airport of fix and then cancel when on top. Remember here the transition altitude is18,000 so lots of sky above to play with once above the overcast. If the airport is still below VFR after the lesson one can get a pop up clearance from Approach Control and shoot an instrument approach back into the airport. And no the controllers don’t mind, they are a really friendly bunch here.
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From: Orlando, Florida
As an aside to the regulation aspect of doing the IFR to VFR and back routine, who pays for the aircraft hours and instructor wages whilst the CFII is "hour building" and keeping current at ILS approaches?
How much hobbs time, and what %age of the lesson, is done with the IFR aspect (departure clearances presumably taken with engine running?), radar vectors, etc.?
How do you justify to the students that it isn't *actually* OK to take off in crap weather - but you can. Do as I say, not as I do?
Just an opinion, and you are (of course) welcome to your own - but I think it's a crap way to teach and hard to justify the cost to the student. It's a generic problem of being paid by the "flight hour" I guess. (No, I don't have a solution).
How much hobbs time, and what %age of the lesson, is done with the IFR aspect (departure clearances presumably taken with engine running?), radar vectors, etc.?
How do you justify to the students that it isn't *actually* OK to take off in crap weather - but you can. Do as I say, not as I do?
Just an opinion, and you are (of course) welcome to your own - but I think it's a crap way to teach and hard to justify the cost to the student. It's a generic problem of being paid by the "flight hour" I guess. (No, I don't have a solution).
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: United states of Europe
Hmm... this sounds odd, you are a CFII but you dont know the specifics in obtaining an airborne clearance or a "local IFR" as you probably call them.
I spend 4years as instructor in the US and this was a VERY common procedure.
How do you get your clearance from an unserviced airport in uncontrolled airspace?
... Just wondering
I spend 4years as instructor in the US and this was a VERY common procedure.
How do you get your clearance from an unserviced airport in uncontrolled airspace?
... Just wondering
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Planet Earth
PicMas.... Hmmm you must also be from Amsterdam and enjoying some left handed cigarettes...
Or maybe you just drink and type... I know exactly how to obtain a frigging Airborne clearance.. Thanks... That wasn't the question
And I am very aware that getting an airborne clearance is a very common procedure...
And what does getting a clearance from an uncontrolled airport have to do with anything? I will answer your question, though, if I can remain VFR I will take off and remain VFR after filing and pick it up with the ARTCC or Approach once in the air depending on where I am - that is if I can't get Clearance Delivery from a Satellite Airport... OR if I am socked in I can call AFSS or ATC on the telephone and get a void time, at the threshold if I so desire...
Since you were "just wondering..." theres you answer. Pardon me for my attitude, but being from the United States of Europe I guess you don't know me at all, and probably shouldn't question stuff like that unless you know the motivation behind the question.
I was wanting to know how other people went about doing it. I am a CFII and I have never filed to take a PPL student up through a deck and do the airwork VFR on top...
Pretty simple...
Or maybe you just drink and type... I know exactly how to obtain a frigging Airborne clearance.. Thanks... That wasn't the question
And I am very aware that getting an airborne clearance is a very common procedure...
And what does getting a clearance from an uncontrolled airport have to do with anything? I will answer your question, though, if I can remain VFR I will take off and remain VFR after filing and pick it up with the ARTCC or Approach once in the air depending on where I am - that is if I can't get Clearance Delivery from a Satellite Airport... OR if I am socked in I can call AFSS or ATC on the telephone and get a void time, at the threshold if I so desire...
Since you were "just wondering..." theres you answer. Pardon me for my attitude, but being from the United States of Europe I guess you don't know me at all, and probably shouldn't question stuff like that unless you know the motivation behind the question.
I was wanting to know how other people went about doing it. I am a CFII and I have never filed to take a PPL student up through a deck and do the airwork VFR on top...
Pretty simple...
