Ex 10a/b/11 Slow Flight/ Stalling/Spin Avoidance
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Ex 10a/b/11 Slow Flight/ Stalling/Spin Avoidance
EX 10A 10b 11
Anyone got any comments on the merits of these two/three exercises and the changes that dropping spinning brought about? Is PPL training flying better without the pure spin exercise? Is the slow flight element of the stalling exercise better than just a pure stall and recovery exercise, if yes why?
Does the slow flight exercise produce better stall awareness or is it a waste of time.
Do some clubs/schools gloss over the slow flying section 10A and concentrate on recognition and recovery as per old syllabus, just covering enough for eventual skills check.
Can you give brief details of how you cover this exercise including configurations and point of emphasis?
Really interested to know your views.
(Sorry if this has been covered before i did a search but could not find anything)
Anyone got any comments on the merits of these two/three exercises and the changes that dropping spinning brought about? Is PPL training flying better without the pure spin exercise? Is the slow flight element of the stalling exercise better than just a pure stall and recovery exercise, if yes why?
Does the slow flight exercise produce better stall awareness or is it a waste of time.
Do some clubs/schools gloss over the slow flying section 10A and concentrate on recognition and recovery as per old syllabus, just covering enough for eventual skills check.
Can you give brief details of how you cover this exercise including configurations and point of emphasis?
Really interested to know your views.
(Sorry if this has been covered before i did a search but could not find anything)
Last edited by llanfairpg; 7th Dec 2007 at 13:46.
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The slow flight exercise is normally a very useful way of improving a students aileron/rudder coordination, due to the fact the adverse aileron yaw effect is much more pronounced at low speed.
The slow flight exercise is certainly useful in preparing a student for flying a final approach, I usually find when slow flying hasn't been covered adequately on the final approach a student will undercontrol with the rudder and overcontrol with the aileron. If you consider a C152 is cruised at 90kts and the approach flown at 65/60 knots then there is a considerable difference in the handling characteristics at these speeds, hence the slow flying is an exercise in refined flying control required for flying a final approach.
If Ex10a and 8 part 2 are covered well it certainly saves time at the circuit stage.
The slow flight exercise is certainly useful in preparing a student for flying a final approach, I usually find when slow flying hasn't been covered adequately on the final approach a student will undercontrol with the rudder and overcontrol with the aileron. If you consider a C152 is cruised at 90kts and the approach flown at 65/60 knots then there is a considerable difference in the handling characteristics at these speeds, hence the slow flying is an exercise in refined flying control required for flying a final approach.
If Ex10a and 8 part 2 are covered well it certainly saves time at the circuit stage.
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I take your point about aileron/rudder but this is covered to a degree in effects of contols and turning? I found that covering slow flight at altitude without ground cues a little futile
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I take your point about aileron/rudder but this is covered to a degree in effects of contols and turning? I found that covering slow flight at altitude without ground cues a little futile
Also, many students approach the thought of hte stallign exercise with trepidation. This exercise allows them to approach it in a systematic way, so that tere is no drama. Mind you, in a PA28, it's all pretty benign, anyway.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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I would also add that slow flying is not something I would dedicate a whole lesson on; it is something that can be tagged onto the end of other lessons, ie: if you have a 10 or 15 minute flight back to the airfield at the end of the exercise I would normally use some of the return leg to the airfield to practice slow flight.
As said I view slow flying as an exercise to refine handling and extension of the effects of controls rather than a pure stall awareness exercise.
80 knots standard speed for a PA28, your school is using too low a power setting, a PA28 will happily cruise at 90 to 100 knots.
As said I view slow flying as an exercise to refine handling and extension of the effects of controls rather than a pure stall awareness exercise.
80 knots standard speed for a PA28, your school is using too low a power setting, a PA28 will happily cruise at 90 to 100 knots.
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Some thoughts...
Isn't some (or all ) of this exercise about being on the wrong side of the drag curve and you can't trade speed for height below Vmd. ie if you are slow and you need stretch the glide you aren't going to do it by raising the nose (as you would if you were above vmd.)
Demonstrating that full power at 45 kts will not produce a climb and how to get the ac back into climbing flight whilst losing min height before you need to do a full stall recovery.
Appreciating what the ac looks and feels like at this speed (nose high, sloppy controls not as noisy, lots of power required to keep S+L) and how to safely get back to normal flight and all of the comments above about control are useful in getting people to recognise this condition.
Appreciating the importance of reaching the rotation speed on takeoff before you lift off. Pulling the stick back before this point (if the trees are getting scarily close) is more likley to increase drag and lower climb performance. Contradictorily in this case its better to lower the nose to gain height rather than raise it.
Also you get a higher rate of descent below Vmd than at Vmd.
Isn't some (or all ) of this exercise about being on the wrong side of the drag curve and you can't trade speed for height below Vmd. ie if you are slow and you need stretch the glide you aren't going to do it by raising the nose (as you would if you were above vmd.)
Demonstrating that full power at 45 kts will not produce a climb and how to get the ac back into climbing flight whilst losing min height before you need to do a full stall recovery.
Appreciating what the ac looks and feels like at this speed (nose high, sloppy controls not as noisy, lots of power required to keep S+L) and how to safely get back to normal flight and all of the comments above about control are useful in getting people to recognise this condition.
Appreciating the importance of reaching the rotation speed on takeoff before you lift off. Pulling the stick back before this point (if the trees are getting scarily close) is more likley to increase drag and lower climb performance. Contradictorily in this case its better to lower the nose to gain height rather than raise it.
Also you get a higher rate of descent below Vmd than at Vmd.
Last edited by 18greens; 8th Dec 2007 at 09:26.
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I agree with everything said so far.
In addition, I think it's important to understand the "normal" flight envelope, and to understand what happens if you push that envelope up to, and just past, its limits.
For most PPLs, once they've completed their training, stalling will not be a normal part of the their flying activities. Slow flight, though, definitely will be - every time they land. Therefore, it's vital that they not only understand slow flight, but also what happens if they get too slow, i.e. stalling. That is to say that the student understands what happens if he pushes the slow flight envelope too far.
Llanfairpg asked about spinning. For the average PPL, having a sound knowledge of stalls and stall avoidance is sufficient. The average PPL will very rarely set out to stall an aircraft, so with a good knowledge of how to avoid the stall (as well as how to fly in balance, of course), spin training is not really necessary (although there are always students who want to experience it, and I was always happy to teach students spinning, but only if they asked me).
On the other hand, us instructors are regularly expected to stall aircraft, so it is important that we understand what happens if we push this stall envelope too far (or, more likely, our students mess up). So having spinning in the FIC syllabus seems, to me, to be the right compromise.
But then I wasn't around back in the days when the PPL syllabus including spinning, and I know there are some strong feelings from those who were!
FFF
--------------
In addition, I think it's important to understand the "normal" flight envelope, and to understand what happens if you push that envelope up to, and just past, its limits.
For most PPLs, once they've completed their training, stalling will not be a normal part of the their flying activities. Slow flight, though, definitely will be - every time they land. Therefore, it's vital that they not only understand slow flight, but also what happens if they get too slow, i.e. stalling. That is to say that the student understands what happens if he pushes the slow flight envelope too far.
Llanfairpg asked about spinning. For the average PPL, having a sound knowledge of stalls and stall avoidance is sufficient. The average PPL will very rarely set out to stall an aircraft, so with a good knowledge of how to avoid the stall (as well as how to fly in balance, of course), spin training is not really necessary (although there are always students who want to experience it, and I was always happy to teach students spinning, but only if they asked me).
On the other hand, us instructors are regularly expected to stall aircraft, so it is important that we understand what happens if we push this stall envelope too far (or, more likely, our students mess up). So having spinning in the FIC syllabus seems, to me, to be the right compromise.
But then I wasn't around back in the days when the PPL syllabus including spinning, and I know there are some strong feelings from those who were!
FFF
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80 knots standard speed for a PA28, your school is using too low a power setting, a PA28 will happily cruise at 90 to 100 knots.
Looks like I haven't been explicit enough again!
We use 2400rpm cruise on the Warrior III which indicates at around 100kt. The 80kt I was referring to is the 'slow flight' speed we use to demonstrate (and get them to practice) on the 1st or 2nd lesson. My point is that whilst it IS slower than the cruise, the effects of slow flight aren't nearly as apparent at this speed as they are at 50kt.
18greens,
Very useful post, thanks.
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I am seeking discussion and information here so please do not take what i have put below as a criticism.
My point is that a lot of what makes up this exercise is covered elswhere (on my syllabus) and was before this exercise was introduced.
i am also not sure that stalling as an exercise should be completed in full before the circuit and needs to be revisited before first solo.
I have put my comments in bold
Isn't some (or all ) of this exercise about being on the wrong side of the drag curve and you can't trade speed for height below Vmd. ie if you are slow and you need stretch the glide you aren't going to do it by raising the nose (as you would if you were above vmd.)
Covered in EFATO/ PFL
Demonstrating that full power at 45 kts will not produce a climb and how to get the ac back into climbing flight whilst losing min height before you need to do a full stall recovery.
A part of stall recognition/ recovery training
Appreciating what the ac looks and feels like at this speed (nose high, sloppy controls not as noisy, lots of power required to keep S+L) and how to safely get back to normal flight and all of the comments above about control are useful in getting people to recognise this condition.
A part of stall recognition/recovery training
Appreciating the importance of reaching the rotation speed on takeoff before you lift off. Pulling the stick back before this point (if the trees are getting scarily close) is more likley to increase drag and lower climb performance. Contradictorily in this case its better to lower the nose to gain height rather than raise it.
A part of circuit training and possibly better understood after circuit training commences
Also you get a higher rate of descent below Vmd than at Vmd.
A part of PFL training
My point is that a lot of what makes up this exercise is covered elswhere (on my syllabus) and was before this exercise was introduced.
i am also not sure that stalling as an exercise should be completed in full before the circuit and needs to be revisited before first solo.
I have put my comments in bold
Isn't some (or all ) of this exercise about being on the wrong side of the drag curve and you can't trade speed for height below Vmd. ie if you are slow and you need stretch the glide you aren't going to do it by raising the nose (as you would if you were above vmd.)
Covered in EFATO/ PFL
Demonstrating that full power at 45 kts will not produce a climb and how to get the ac back into climbing flight whilst losing min height before you need to do a full stall recovery.
A part of stall recognition/ recovery training
Appreciating what the ac looks and feels like at this speed (nose high, sloppy controls not as noisy, lots of power required to keep S+L) and how to safely get back to normal flight and all of the comments above about control are useful in getting people to recognise this condition.
A part of stall recognition/recovery training
Appreciating the importance of reaching the rotation speed on takeoff before you lift off. Pulling the stick back before this point (if the trees are getting scarily close) is more likley to increase drag and lower climb performance. Contradictorily in this case its better to lower the nose to gain height rather than raise it.
A part of circuit training and possibly better understood after circuit training commences
Also you get a higher rate of descent below Vmd than at Vmd.
A part of PFL training
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My father, who instructed a LOT during WWII, never returned to instructing as a career.
But he remained a resource to other instructors for another 40 years, often taking problem students and using his patience and observation skills to help them through their troubles.
At least half the time the student wasn't doing well in approach/landing, and Dad always addressed this with a period of slow flight, including approach turns & transitions from cruise to slow flight and back. This led the student to a level of comfort in that regime, which always helped the approach/landing problem.
(I should add - for a time the WWII AT-6 Texan/Harvard syllabus included placing a mask on the airspeed indicator so one could not read any speed below 90 kt IIRC, so only tactile and attitude cues were available to the student)
In fact, that's how he and I always checked out a new a/c type: Head for a healthy altitude, practice stalls & stall approaches, & turns in approach configuration, to see how honest (or not) the airplane behaves.
But he remained a resource to other instructors for another 40 years, often taking problem students and using his patience and observation skills to help them through their troubles.
At least half the time the student wasn't doing well in approach/landing, and Dad always addressed this with a period of slow flight, including approach turns & transitions from cruise to slow flight and back. This led the student to a level of comfort in that regime, which always helped the approach/landing problem.
(I should add - for a time the WWII AT-6 Texan/Harvard syllabus included placing a mask on the airspeed indicator so one could not read any speed below 90 kt IIRC, so only tactile and attitude cues were available to the student)
In fact, that's how he and I always checked out a new a/c type: Head for a healthy altitude, practice stalls & stall approaches, & turns in approach configuration, to see how honest (or not) the airplane behaves.
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I'm not sure if the PPL syllabus is exactly the same everywhere, but regardless, I find the slow flight excercise extremely valuable for many things. And we bring the aircraft (DA40D) down to at least 60 knots with and without flap. The problems that students seem to have are coordinating power and pitch attitude to maintain level flight as well as maintaining direction - not enough rudder. This requires a lot of coordination and attention to the trend of the aircraft. Once they can handle cruise - 60 knots and back with various flap movement they aslo seem to handle circuits better.
I have noticed a difference between students that had trouble getting the slow flight right vs those who didn't when it came to flying circuits.
With regards to stalling and spinning we don't spin but focus on stall and recovery. Also demonstrate cross control and spin entry and recovery.
I'm always anxious that a student thinks it's so much fun he'll go out and do it himself, on his own...
How far do you normally push the stall/recovery portion ?
I have noticed a difference between students that had trouble getting the slow flight right vs those who didn't when it came to flying circuits.
With regards to stalling and spinning we don't spin but focus on stall and recovery. Also demonstrate cross control and spin entry and recovery.
I'm always anxious that a student thinks it's so much fun he'll go out and do it himself, on his own...
How far do you normally push the stall/recovery portion ?
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Slow flight is important and can be a life-saver, but I agree with the previous comment that it is better covered in small doses on other exercises, rather than as a dedicated sortie, starting with Effects of Controls 2. I remember the great hoopla when the exercise was introduced. In fairness to the powers that be, it was seen as a necessary addition when spinning was discontinued. The problem with doing slow flight in bite-sized chunks, as I do, is ensuring the logbook unambiguously indicates that the required flight time has been undertaken. An annotation in the remarks column is as good as anything but I'm open to suggestions.
Perhaps we should take a leaf from the Americans' book and teach the chandelle?
Perhaps we should take a leaf from the Americans' book and teach the chandelle?
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My understanding of the introduction at the time(and i was instructing then) that it was Campbells attempt to bring PPL training more in line with FAA requiremnts. At that time he was CFI of a school that was offering FAA PPL training. His encyclopeadic books also refelected his FAA influence. The books are long gone but the slow flying exercise is still with us.
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Does the slow flight exercise produce better stall awareness or is it a waste of time.
tp
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I was teaching slow flight today. trying to do it for a whole hour was going to be too much, so I just introduced the basics of what slow flight looked like, and how to recognize when you shouldn't be doing it. then how to do mit properly when you should be doing it (low viz etc).
The rest was over to stalling, with slow flight to be revisted over the coming lessons.
with all flight training, practical applications are what we need to emphasize to the student - i.e demonstrate the situation where you might get into stall/spin (or need a steep turn, or do a forced landing), rather than just showing the exercise by numbers.
There's nothing like youtube (about 50 sec in) to get a few clips of model aircraft getting into stall/spin crashes
The rest was over to stalling, with slow flight to be revisted over the coming lessons.
with all flight training, practical applications are what we need to emphasize to the student - i.e demonstrate the situation where you might get into stall/spin (or need a steep turn, or do a forced landing), rather than just showing the exercise by numbers.
There's nothing like youtube (about 50 sec in) to get a few clips of model aircraft getting into stall/spin crashes
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One of the problems I always felt with teaching stalling/slow flying is that it was so divorced form reality climbing to 3000 feet plus to teach self induced stall recovery. The best place to teach the exercise with some impact (pun) would be at 500 feet on finals!!! (yes i am joking).
reading all of your posts i am going to stick with teaching it as a part exercise
reading all of your posts i am going to stick with teaching it as a part exercise
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Slow flight is a lesson I believe is not paid by far enough attention too by many Instructors. It is a lesson on its own and not to be tagged onto the back of anything else.
It should begin by teaching the student how to fly straight and level (I use the example of the 152) at 65 knots. Then from S+L at 65 knots the student should be taught how to put the aircraft into climb maintaining the speed and then level off again. Same for a descent.
Then from 65 S+L put the aircraft into a turn demonstrating the need for additional power to maintain the airspeed.
Then teach S+L at 55knots with 2 stages of flap. Then climbing/descending/turning in this configuration.
Finally the Instructor should demonstrate a clean stall recovery without power to demonstrate to the student that there is nothing too scary about stalling which the student will know by then is the next lesson.
This lesson adds polish to handling skills but more importantly allows the student to grasp that pitch controls speed power controls altitude which is so important when you move onto flying in the circuit.
If you are not teaching your students this lesson you are not doing your job properly!
It should begin by teaching the student how to fly straight and level (I use the example of the 152) at 65 knots. Then from S+L at 65 knots the student should be taught how to put the aircraft into climb maintaining the speed and then level off again. Same for a descent.
Then from 65 S+L put the aircraft into a turn demonstrating the need for additional power to maintain the airspeed.
Then teach S+L at 55knots with 2 stages of flap. Then climbing/descending/turning in this configuration.
Finally the Instructor should demonstrate a clean stall recovery without power to demonstrate to the student that there is nothing too scary about stalling which the student will know by then is the next lesson.
This lesson adds polish to handling skills but more importantly allows the student to grasp that pitch controls speed power controls altitude which is so important when you move onto flying in the circuit.
If you are not teaching your students this lesson you are not doing your job properly!