How "hands-on" should an instructor be?

[kevmusic]

Hi all,
I've had to change instructors due to day-off issues and although I get along fine with this new bloke on the ground; in the air he is beginning to sap my confidence. I'm quite a long way through the NPPL course, approaching solo nav. I find that this chap unexpectedly takes control to correct me: usually just a stick movement or two, but I find I can let go of everything and the aircraft is flying itself! Yesterday I had to ask him if I had control again. We're flying a Cub so there is no visual with each other. Sometimes the 'I have control' - 'You have control' dialogue is used, sometimes not. Even when it is, he takes control much more than my last (older, more experienced) instructor.

Is this a fairly common scenario? If it's not how do I get him to stop? I'm a one-to-one music teacher and I know that one's style is a very personal thing and I don't want to give offence.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks.

[BEagle]

It is absolutely essential that the FI uses the formal IHC/YHC handover! This should be instinctive for any FI.

Is this an inexperienced FI? If so, complain to the CFI. In fact complain anyway - he is behaving in a way which is ultimately dangerous and needs his ar$e soundly kicking!!

[foxmoth]

I 2 would go go with Beagle - dangerous for you and him.
How much an individual instructor does hands on will vary enormously and generally the more experienced instructors will tend to be more hands off, but you both must know who is flying the aircraft at any time.

[Ex Oggie]

Ditto BEagle and foxmoth. Go have a quite chat with the CFI over tea and biscuits. This needs to be nipped in the bud (assuming it's an inexperienced instructor) as soon as posible for everyones benefit.

XO

[80kts checked]

"Hands-On Instructor*

I agree with the other comments.
The phrase "I have control" is not optional.
Do not hesitate to take this up with either the instructor or CFI.
In the first instance, this is a safety and procedural issue.
In the second instance, you are the customer and you are entitled to better value for your money!

[homeguard]

Hands off!

The instructor should take control only when it is absolutely necessary to demonstrate and explain but using the protocol already outlined.
You are the one learning and you should be doing the flying. Maybe a frank word directly with the instructor should happen first - could easily be resolved and a good relationship formed afterward.
His actions could be over enthusiastic. Make sure that he realises that his abrupt take-overs are sapping your confidence. If he dosn't respond then follow the previous advice.....................

[212man]

Are we talking about wholesale control take over, or small prompts/restrictions on the stick, combined with guiding comments?

[foxmoth]

(assuming it's an inexperienced instructor)

Even if its an experienced instructor then there is no excuse not to be taking control in the correct manner. There is the case that 212man says of a small input or restriction - but the only case I could think of where I might use this is TO/Landing when you may be able to correct a small error without fully taking control, at higher altitudes there is time for the students error to develop more without becoming dangerous and is usually a better learning experience.

[kevmusic]

Thanks for all your replies.

Are we talking about wholesale control take over, or small prompts/restrictions on the stick, combined with guiding comments?

Prompts and restrictions with comments, yes, but a lot of the time and in upper air (on navex). Don't forget I've reached the stage of having started up, taxied out and left the area for PFLs and steep turns, rejoined, taxied in and shut down all solo; so I do know how to fly! (This was whilst under my last FI.)

Not sure how the CFI/FI system works at this FTO. It's Weald Air at Headcorn and they're all career instructors with their own businesses.

[Insane]

Any error that needs correction, should be pointed out, and then correctecd in the propper way using the correct procedure, so that the student is aware of what is going on. You are paying for the hours. It is not about how well he can fly, it is about how well he can get you to fly!!

[oldbeefer]

Small nudges etc may be OK at a critical phase of flight, but, where safe, the student should always be given time to see if he can recognise his own error and correct it. That way both he and his instructor know what his capabilities are! Does sound like classic 'new instructor' technique (or maybe old instructor who has forgotten)and needs stopping - should be picked up during his rating check rides.

[BEagle]

"There is the case that 212man says of a small input or restriction - but the only case I could think of where I might use this is TO/Landing when you may be able to correct a small error without fully taking control"

NO!! That's very, very dangerous. The student might think it was a control restriction and overcontrol as a result. The ONLY safe method is the well-proven 'IHC/YHC' mantra.

Just print off this thread and pin it up on the Club noticeboard for the FI to read.

[kevmusic]

It's fair to say he does tend to do this at any phase of flight. There is a fair amount of IHC/YHC too - much more than I'm used to.

[foxmoth]

NO!! That's very, very dangerous. The student might think it was a control restriction and overcontrol as a result. The ONLY safe method is the well-proven 'IHC/YHC' mantra.

Whilst I agree this needs to be done with caution there are times I do not want to take it off the student, if I call IHC then he takes his hands off the controls, in the case for example of a student who is bouncing (mainly tailwheel courses), it can be quite effective to stop the bounce where it should be at the same time explaining "This is where you need it - you have control", because I explain WIHIH he knows what is going on and there is still the correct hand over back to the student who still has his hands on - a technique I have been using with no problem over many years when needed (though kept to a minimum).

[212man]

I guess like all these queries, we are only being presented with one side of the story. It may well be (and on the face of it appears so) a case of a newby instructor who's a little unsure of himself, and is not as relaxed as he may be, over reacting to things. On the other hand, it could be you have been trained thus far by a slightly gash instructor who fails to correct where appropriate and generally lets you get away with anything, and your new guy is trying to correct all that! I'd bet on the former, but let's not all jump on him without knowing the facts.

Beagle, clearly at altitude the student should be allowed to let mishandling develop without intervention as far as possible, but surely to goodness when landing, the odd prompt "not too far back" with a slight restriction must be better than "IHC," or a little assistance with flare rate ("keep it coming up")? Essentially as Oldbeefer describes (and I think he may know a thing or two about instructing.)

I'm sure we all agree that it is preferable to let the student handle the controls as much as possible, and suddenly taking them off him at a critical moment is fairly hard on his confidence. Much better to debrief something that he has flown himself, but that you had to offer a little assistance with (and he is aware of.)

[BEagle]

In which case it's "I have control, follow me through"!

[foxmoth]

One other case I may restrict the controls, this time done at height with a student who has consistently missed lookout before turning, here I will totally prevent the roll, often using a knee to block the movement (depends on aircraft), the first time the student will look at you with a puzzled look until you ask what he has forgotten, the second and third time he will twig on pretty quickly - very rarely needs more than three times before pre turn lookout becomes automatic.

[212man]

In which case it's "I have control, follow me through"!

Well, clearly you have never been involved in teaching helicopter autorotations or rejected take offs!

Surely, if you have a student who consistently tries to put the control yoke/stick in an inappropriate position, it is better to restrain the input and state "hold it there" (thereby helping the motor reflex memory) rather than grab the controls, say "I have control" and try to debrief the situation after landing, to a deflated ego?

[BEagle]

Again, a silly and potentially dangerous thing to do.

Just take control, rebrief and hand control back to the student.

When I was a student in 1968, the instructor had a habit of trying to nudge the aircraft into a spiral descent with his knee. I got fed up with this, so one day I applied full opposite lock with both hands on the yoke, giving him a splendid bruise in the process.

Sorry, but there is no excuse whatsoever for interfering with the controls when the student is flying.

[212man]

Well, clearly that's not a terribly useful and helpful method to employ, and is dificult to justify!

Grabbing the controls off a student at 10 ft and expecting him to then follow through and assimilate your actions, as opposed to a mild input with encouraging comment, is a different story!