Correct phraeseology
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Around
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct phraeseology
Just wanting to run something past y'all. Was recently doing an insructors test, when during the forced landing, instead of leaving me to it, the FTO told me to 'dump the flaps'. What does this mean? Does it mean extend, or retract? I was really annoyed at this, thinking it meant the latter and thinking - engine failure, on finals, retract the flaps???!!! - but upon talking to someone who interpreted it as the opposite I can understand why. However, shouldn't I have been left to prove I could make it? Especially as i asked to be left to it and it would have been a great FLWOP. Also, surely an FTO should be using unambiguous phraseology too.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Millington
Age: 59
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FTO told me to 'dump the flaps'. What does this mean? Does it mean extend, or retract?
Ambiguous phraseology is a problem, but there isn't a standard for everything. I've told students "FULL power" which they heard as "PULL power", to our great dissatisfaction.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, I agree with you there. Ambiguous phraseology doesn't help one bit, especially from someone who should be setting the standards. If I was in your position, I'd politely ask for clarification there and then ... "excuse me sir/madam, do you mean extend or retract flaps?"
... and isn't it not good airmanship to retract flaps on final unless you're doing a go-around?
... and isn't it not good airmanship to retract flaps on final unless you're doing a go-around?
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 789
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would take 'dump' flaps to be get rid of them - i.e clean configuration, and 'drop' flaps to lower them.
However a/c type is an issue as well. On Cessnas you lower the flap lever to lower the flaps, whilst on Piper, you raise the flap lever to lower the flaps.
Is dumping/dropping in relation to the flaps, or movement of the lever to get the flaps to where youy want them?
A good reason to follow SOPs.
However a/c type is an issue as well. On Cessnas you lower the flap lever to lower the flaps, whilst on Piper, you raise the flap lever to lower the flaps.
Is dumping/dropping in relation to the flaps, or movement of the lever to get the flaps to where youy want them?
A good reason to follow SOPs.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 10 west
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a very good example slots of non standard phrasiology leading to confusion. thanks for bringing it up...or laying it down before us so to speak...!!!
...
particularly important that as instructors we make it clear what we mean in clear unambiguous language...
i used to tell those on the course that their flying should be beyond reproach..the instructors course is about guiding someone in how to TEACH...not to fly as such...
and as an example when on base or finals and i am told 'take off power'..i either close the throttle completely and when asked why i say well you did'nt tell me to reduce power and tell me the value to which you wanted it reduced...
OR..i open the throttle fully.. and when asked i will say well you asked for take off power...take off power is full power..!!!
...that usually proves the point.
flaps away..!!..*****..there it goes again...
the dean.
...particularly important that as instructors we make it clear what we mean in clear unambiguous language...
i used to tell those on the course that their flying should be beyond reproach..the instructors course is about guiding someone in how to TEACH...not to fly as such...
and as an example when on base or finals and i am told 'take off power'..i either close the throttle completely and when asked why i say well you did'nt tell me to reduce power and tell me the value to which you wanted it reduced...
OR..i open the throttle fully.. and when asked i will say well you asked for take off power...take off power is full power..!!!
...that usually proves the point.flaps away..!!..*****..there it goes again...
the dean.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Millington
Age: 59
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... and isn't it not good airmanship to retract flaps on final unless you're doing a go-around?
Some interesting comments illustrating how slang can be confusing. I have heard the term "dump the flaps" on a number of occasions and it has meant completely the opposite to the conclusions.
To dump would imply to drop or to lower.
The question is, where were the flaps when you were told to dump them? If they were up it implied lower them, if down it probably meant the opposite!
To dump would imply to drop or to lower.
The question is, where were the flaps when you were told to dump them? If they were up it implied lower them, if down it probably meant the opposite!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If he had lowered flaps too early and making the field was unlikely, raising them again would be prudent
VFE.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The question is, where were the flaps when you were told to dump them? If they were up it implied lower them, if down it probably meant the opposite!
I've been trying to find an account of a very similar issue, which I thought got a mention in Steven Cushing's Fatal Words, but perhaps it was a Callback or Chirp. In that particular case, the instruction was to "put some flap in", which one crewmember intended as "extend", and the other interpreted as "retract".
Choose better words, and encourage others to do the same.
Choose better words, and encourage others to do the same.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Millington
Age: 59
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pardon? VFE.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Flaps & Throttle phraseology
I've just started teaching on a mix of AA5 and PA28. Re the PA28, I explain that the throttle quadrant makes it easier to sense the direction of movement required and I'm using the phrases 'advance' or 'retard' the power. This also fits well with the plunger type throttle on some early AA5 and also Cessnas. 'Full Power' and 'Idle Power' are good for the ends of the range. Should I be saying 'throttle' instead of 'power', though?
Flaps on Cessnas are a no-brainer 'raise' or 'lower' are good words and as said above the actuating lever and the indicator move in the same sense. PA28 flaps are a bu**er in this regard and I brief that it'll take a time to get it right, more practice at applying and removing different flap settings at height before the circuit, I think a good idea.
The AA5 OUGHT to be as easy as the Cessna, but I have found people find confusion because the switch and indicator move fore-and-aft, not up and down so there's no natural sense to it. Not as bad as the PA28, but not good. I'll still carry on with 'Raise' and 'lower' though, but sometimes '1st stage', '2nd stage' '3rd stage' seem appropriate.
TOO
Flaps on Cessnas are a no-brainer 'raise' or 'lower' are good words and as said above the actuating lever and the indicator move in the same sense. PA28 flaps are a bu**er in this regard and I brief that it'll take a time to get it right, more practice at applying and removing different flap settings at height before the circuit, I think a good idea.
The AA5 OUGHT to be as easy as the Cessna, but I have found people find confusion because the switch and indicator move fore-and-aft, not up and down so there's no natural sense to it. Not as bad as the PA28, but not good. I'll still carry on with 'Raise' and 'lower' though, but sometimes '1st stage', '2nd stage' '3rd stage' seem appropriate.
TOO
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 789
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I taught a farmer to fly once. The hand throttle control on a tractor steering column is reverse of an aircraft - i.e full power is pull the lever back.
It resulted in some very slow take-off rolls.
It resulted in some very slow take-off rolls.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again you are assuming this action is carried out at a safe height. What would happen, for example, if a pilot were to retract full flap at say, 100ft on the approach when the airspeed has decreased to such an extent due to the resultant drag?
VFE.
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 9th Oct 2007 at 08:14.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Millington
Age: 59
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again you are assuming this action is carried out at a safe height. What would happen, for example, if a pilot were to retract full flap at say, 100ft on the approach when the airspeed has decreased to such an extent due to the resultant drag?
However, if the pilot has slowed to such speeds, it's because he has the mistaken (but intuitive) belief that the elevator is the "up" control. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
The flaps alone will not slow him to this speed, because the the drag alone produces a greater descent angle, not an airspeed reduction. The airspeed reduction, as always, is proceduced by an AOA change. However, sometimes flaps produce a pitching moment around the CG which, in effect, retrims the airplane for a different airspeed. In the Mooney I fly, flap extension will *increase* the airspeed, not reduce it.Regardless, most pilots realize well before 100 ft that they won't make their target. If they're on airspeed, as they should be, raising the flaps won't cause a problem.
Last edited by Nathan Parker; 9th Oct 2007 at 16:59.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regardless, most pilots realize well before 100 ft that they won't make their target. If they're on airspeed, as they should be, raising the flaps won't cause a problem.
VFE.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: England
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
It's true that if the aircraft were at or below the full flap stalling speed, raising the flaps would require an increase in AOA that would produce a stall.
If the aircraft is at or below the full flap stalling speed and in 1g condition (e.g. wings-level constant glide descent) then it is already stalled.
It's true that if the aircraft were at or below the full flap stalling speed, raising the flaps would require an increase in AOA that would produce a stall.
If the aircraft is at or below the full flap stalling speed and in 1g condition (e.g. wings-level constant glide descent) then it is already stalled.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Millington
Age: 59
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the aircraft is at or below the full flap stalling speed and in 1g condition (e.g. wings-level constant glide descent) then it is already stalled.