Spin Recovery
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Spin Recovery
I saw this elsewhere on the site:
which made me wonder if I have missed something along the line.
Comments please.
OC619
When recovering from a spin at the incipient stage, you use the Standard Stall recovery, which would mean you use full power..
Comments please.
OC619
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That was me who posted that in response to someone who questioned someone else who stated they used full power in spin recovery.
In my haste, I put that comment up without fully explaining my thoughts.
The person who stated they had used full power in the spin recovery, was refering to doing stall training and experienced a wing drop in the process.
In response, another poster questioned using full power for spin recovery.
Then that's when I made the comment.
When a wing drop is experienced in stall recovery, (which is the beginning of a spin)
-move the control column forward
-use rudder to prevent further yaw
-apply full power
-as airspeed increases, level the wings with co-ordinated use of aileron and rudder
-ease out of descent
However, use of power if the nose is below the horizon will only increase the height loss.
Now, I am left wondering -
Am I missing something myself?!?!?
In my haste, I put that comment up without fully explaining my thoughts.
The person who stated they had used full power in the spin recovery, was refering to doing stall training and experienced a wing drop in the process.
In response, another poster questioned using full power for spin recovery.
Then that's when I made the comment.
When a wing drop is experienced in stall recovery, (which is the beginning of a spin)
-move the control column forward
-use rudder to prevent further yaw
-apply full power
-as airspeed increases, level the wings with co-ordinated use of aileron and rudder
-ease out of descent
However, use of power if the nose is below the horizon will only increase the height loss.
Now, I am left wondering -
Am I missing something myself?!?!?
The way I was taught was to:
- Centre the controls (some A/C flight manuals say to push forward or use aileron, check for your particular type)
- Power to idle
- Apply opposite rudder until the autorotation stops
Once the rotation has stopped, you have recovered from the spin, but are now most likely in a nose high/nose low unusual attitude, so for a nose low attitude it would mean to leave the power idle, unload the G, roll wings level, then pitch up. Passing a safe speed e.g. Vx, you would then apply full power to continue the climb and gain back altitude.
If you were to recover in a "nose high" attitude, you would then need full power, unload G, wings level, pitch down.
- Centre the controls (some A/C flight manuals say to push forward or use aileron, check for your particular type)
- Power to idle
- Apply opposite rudder until the autorotation stops
Once the rotation has stopped, you have recovered from the spin, but are now most likely in a nose high/nose low unusual attitude, so for a nose low attitude it would mean to leave the power idle, unload the G, roll wings level, then pitch up. Passing a safe speed e.g. Vx, you would then apply full power to continue the climb and gain back altitude.
If you were to recover in a "nose high" attitude, you would then need full power, unload G, wings level, pitch down.
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Not at the incipient stage, Arrrr. You can simply centre the controls, and if learning aeros that is what you will be taught. Let the a/c sort itself out from there!
And it depends on the aircraft type. On the two prop types I instructed on in the RAF, one you closed the throttle, the other you didn't. The one on which you did had 1150HP - not closing the throttle could give you additional poblems.
Apologies, i was referring to a generic fully developed spin in a C152 or similar. On a side note, the Cirrus SR22 flight manual does basically say to let go and pull the airframe parachute, that is the only approved spin recovery for that aircraft. Like blackbandit says, the flight manual knows all, and is the final reference for a question like this.
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totally wrong
in a fully developed spin in a c150/152 just letting go of the controls WILL NOT result in recovery. in a fully developed spin in the baby cessnas, if you just release the controls they will remain in the position where u released them. ie: stick still full back and rudder fully in. THEY WILL NOT CENTRALISE THEMSELVES. most instructors have only experienced the developing spin. this is the condition where, yes, if you release the controls they will centre and the aircraft will pretty much recover by itself, albeit in a very nose low attitude. it is not a fully developed spin.
i have seen many instructors sh.it themselves when the little baby wont recover by itself. the beauty of the fully developed spin in a baby cessna is that its fairly hard to get the aircraft to do it. and you need about 8000to do it safely. the ugly side is that it does not recover instantly, and can take up to 4 complete revolutions for the recovery to even start to work. all the primary controls are very very sluggish. unless full stick forward is held, and i mean held, the aircraft will not recover.
its very exciting, and a lot of fun. but you really have to be very careful and have heaps of insurance.(altitude).
i have seen many instructors sh.it themselves when the little baby wont recover by itself. the beauty of the fully developed spin in a baby cessna is that its fairly hard to get the aircraft to do it. and you need about 8000to do it safely. the ugly side is that it does not recover instantly, and can take up to 4 complete revolutions for the recovery to even start to work. all the primary controls are very very sluggish. unless full stick forward is held, and i mean held, the aircraft will not recover.
its very exciting, and a lot of fun. but you really have to be very careful and have heaps of insurance.(altitude).
There are some slightly surprising comments in this thread, so to avoid confusion the techniques for the usual GA type aircraft are:
It's worrying that some FIs appear to be nervous about deliberate spinning because this attitude gets passed-on to the stude. If you're not fully confident about your ability it would be good to book a couple of trips with an experienced aeros FI in a suitable aircraft (e.g. Bulldog or T67) and exorcise the demon. This should also teach you how to demo a realistic entry (such as an over-ruddered turn), rather than the usual nonsense of yanking the stick back and applying full rudder at Vs+10
HFD
- Standard stall recovery: stick sufficiently far forward to unstall the wing (ailerons neutral), full power (prevent yaw), level the wings with aileron and smoothly pitch to a shallow climb
- Incipient spin recovery (up to about 1 turn): centralise the controls, when rotation stops recover from the resulting unusual attitude.
- Full spin recovery: power off, full rudder opposite the TI, pause then stick centrally forwards until rotation stops, immediately centralise controls and ease out of dive, re-apply power as nose comes through the horizon.
It's worrying that some FIs appear to be nervous about deliberate spinning because this attitude gets passed-on to the stude. If you're not fully confident about your ability it would be good to book a couple of trips with an experienced aeros FI in a suitable aircraft (e.g. Bulldog or T67) and exorcise the demon. This should also teach you how to demo a realistic entry (such as an over-ruddered turn), rather than the usual nonsense of yanking the stick back and applying full rudder at Vs+10
HFD
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There are three situations to consider:
Wing Drop past 45 degrees - unstall the wing by easing cc forward with ailerons neutral, prevent further yaw with rudder, when the wing has unstalled (when the sw goes off) level the wings with ailerons and ease out of the dive, recover to the climb (only then )with power. As mentioned before - the application of power is a judgement call in the stall recovery as you don't want to drive yourself faster into the ground by applying full power when the nose of the AC is pointing at the ground!
Incipient Spin - this is the phase when the spin has not developed into Autorotation - can be anywhere from 2 - 6 turns dependant on the design characteristics of the AC, consult the AM. Personally I would use 2. The standard recovery is to CLOSE THROTTLE, CENTRALISE CONTROLS, EASE A/C OUT OF DIVE. Then resume with wings level to the climb.
This is the standard technique now being recommended - the throttle must be closed.
Full Spin - Once autorotation has developed then use the standard spin recovery technique or the one recommended by the AC manual.
The aircraft should recover from the fully developed spin using the standard recovery technique I believe for certification purposes if it is to be used for that purpose.
Hope this helps
Wing Drop past 45 degrees - unstall the wing by easing cc forward with ailerons neutral, prevent further yaw with rudder, when the wing has unstalled (when the sw goes off) level the wings with ailerons and ease out of the dive, recover to the climb (only then )with power. As mentioned before - the application of power is a judgement call in the stall recovery as you don't want to drive yourself faster into the ground by applying full power when the nose of the AC is pointing at the ground!
Incipient Spin - this is the phase when the spin has not developed into Autorotation - can be anywhere from 2 - 6 turns dependant on the design characteristics of the AC, consult the AM. Personally I would use 2. The standard recovery is to CLOSE THROTTLE, CENTRALISE CONTROLS, EASE A/C OUT OF DIVE. Then resume with wings level to the climb.
This is the standard technique now being recommended - the throttle must be closed.
Full Spin - Once autorotation has developed then use the standard spin recovery technique or the one recommended by the AC manual.
The aircraft should recover from the fully developed spin using the standard recovery technique I believe for certification purposes if it is to be used for that purpose.
Hope this helps
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To clarify my previous post - Recovery at incipient stage - I meant that the spin does not fully develop until anywhere from 2 to 6 turns.
Anywhere from a situation where the AC has gone from half a turn to about 2 turns therefore - use the incipient recovery technique.
Thereafter its the standard spin recovery technique.
As previously mentioned , even a Cessna 152 will not recover instantly when the autorotation has set in and the spin is fully developed.
Don't even think of doing this unless you have loads of height, I previously span a 152 which took 4000' to recover , we found out later the ailerons were slightly mis-rigged!
Anywhere from a situation where the AC has gone from half a turn to about 2 turns therefore - use the incipient recovery technique.
Thereafter its the standard spin recovery technique.
As previously mentioned , even a Cessna 152 will not recover instantly when the autorotation has set in and the spin is fully developed.
Don't even think of doing this unless you have loads of height, I previously span a 152 which took 4000' to recover , we found out later the ailerons were slightly mis-rigged!
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blackbandit
Where do you get your information on spinning the C150/C152's.
The cessna will recover quite easily from the spin. It has never taken me four full rotations to recover.
Releasing the controls will generally just kick you out of the spin into a spiral dive. Actually, after about 4-5 spins, the Cessna will start to enetr one anyway. In fact, to maintain the spin you have to keep the CC fully back. THE CONTROL COLUMN WILL DEFINATELY NOT STAY IN THE FULLY BACK POSITION IF YOU LET GO.
You say you have seen many instructors sh.t themselves when the Cessna won't recover. How many FI's have you been with to have so many unfortunate instances. And been there at that time to see it.
And I have never had to hold the control column fully forward for recovery. And the only time I have ever heard of a cessna not recovering noramlly is when the aircraft was found out to be bent in some way.
You have strange ideas on spinning cessna's. Please tell us where you get these from. I have a few hours teaching spinning and never experienced the characteristics/problems or control inputs you suggest
The cessna will recover quite easily from the spin. It has never taken me four full rotations to recover.
Releasing the controls will generally just kick you out of the spin into a spiral dive. Actually, after about 4-5 spins, the Cessna will start to enetr one anyway. In fact, to maintain the spin you have to keep the CC fully back. THE CONTROL COLUMN WILL DEFINATELY NOT STAY IN THE FULLY BACK POSITION IF YOU LET GO.
You say you have seen many instructors sh.t themselves when the Cessna won't recover. How many FI's have you been with to have so many unfortunate instances. And been there at that time to see it.
And I have never had to hold the control column fully forward for recovery. And the only time I have ever heard of a cessna not recovering noramlly is when the aircraft was found out to be bent in some way.
You have strange ideas on spinning cessna's. Please tell us where you get these from. I have a few hours teaching spinning and never experienced the characteristics/problems or control inputs you suggest
"However, use of power if the nose is below the horizon will only increase the height loss."
Horse****! It will increase the rate of acceleration to a speed at which you can safely pitch to the climbing attitude and will reduce height loss!
Horse****! It will increase the rate of acceleration to a speed at which you can safely pitch to the climbing attitude and will reduce height loss!
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For the incipient spin recovery, I teach;
Control column and Rudder neutral, leave power alone.
When rotation stops;
1. Nose above or near horizon - full power (prevent pitch roll and yaw) and level wings;
2. Nose well below horizon - close throttle (prevent pitch, roll and yaw) level wings, stop descent, full power as nose pitches past the horizon.
If rotation does not stop - full spin recovery.
I believe that it is important to leave the power alone initially because one does not want the added complications of the effects of changing power (roll, pitch and yaw) possibly delaying the recovery.
Note we are talking incipient stage here.
One of the most important things for ab-initio students is to do a gradual work-up with the entries i.e. as confidence grows with recoveries make more and more agressive entries.
Regards,
DFC
Control column and Rudder neutral, leave power alone.
When rotation stops;
1. Nose above or near horizon - full power (prevent pitch roll and yaw) and level wings;
2. Nose well below horizon - close throttle (prevent pitch, roll and yaw) level wings, stop descent, full power as nose pitches past the horizon.
If rotation does not stop - full spin recovery.
I believe that it is important to leave the power alone initially because one does not want the added complications of the effects of changing power (roll, pitch and yaw) possibly delaying the recovery.
Note we are talking incipient stage here.
One of the most important things for ab-initio students is to do a gradual work-up with the entries i.e. as confidence grows with recoveries make more and more agressive entries.
Regards,
DFC
BEagle, absolutely right if trained to coordinate pull with power - but I suggest that for the average bod (who may well be shaking and wanting his/her Mum at this point) it's better to teach power on when the nose is above the horizon and leave the fancier options for those that do additional training.
HFD
HFD
NO!! Teach them properly - or not at all!
If they can't cope, keep at it until they can. Or tell the little blighters to take up another hobby!
If they can't cope, keep at it until they can. Or tell the little blighters to take up another hobby!
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One very important factor to consider when teaching the incipient spin recovery is that up until now the student has only been taught the standard stall recovery. A technique which is ingrained in them.
The decision of when to apply full power must be taught to the student as some students attempt to recover from the incipient spin - after the first turn - using full power! - this is even after being shown.
The effect of power in the spin is to pitch the nose of the AC up and is detrimental to the recovery characteristics of most aircraft. The Aircraft Manual should be consulted for all types before spinning is attempted.
The decision of when to apply full power must be taught to the student as some students attempt to recover from the incipient spin - after the first turn - using full power! - this is even after being shown.
The effect of power in the spin is to pitch the nose of the AC up and is detrimental to the recovery characteristics of most aircraft. The Aircraft Manual should be consulted for all types before spinning is attempted.
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Spinning
Beagle,
Well said as always. We are a few years apart and a large lake, but you and I share a lot of views as we were taught to fly properly.
The more I read this, almost continuous, discussion regarding spinning and spin recovery it tells me that we need to be teaching the subject once again. And, if the modern tin/plastic can won't spin properly find one that will. They will all spin in some way or another, if you try hard enough, so why not teach it.
I was taught to fly in the '50's in the UK in a Miles Magister. When it stalled it was very inclined to spin so we were educated accordingly and it was no big issue. Upright spins, flat spins, inverted spins.
I have just been involved in putting together a spin upset program, and had a difficulty getting the academics to put a discussion of the various forms of spins into it. They only wanted to talk about normal upright spins??
We keep getting this crap that we hurt more people training than we did with real spins, perhaps we should go back to square one, and properly educate the teachers!!
If it frightens the little darlings let then take up cross stitch. It might just save their precious little behinds.
I used to fly with an *** inspector that would not do "stalls" unless I was with him?? Where do the standards start??? What sort of check rides was this guy giving?? And no I am not an aerobatic dinosaur either. I do them very rarely.
Rant over, I will get my coat and the tin hat!!
Speedbird 48.
Well said as always. We are a few years apart and a large lake, but you and I share a lot of views as we were taught to fly properly.
The more I read this, almost continuous, discussion regarding spinning and spin recovery it tells me that we need to be teaching the subject once again. And, if the modern tin/plastic can won't spin properly find one that will. They will all spin in some way or another, if you try hard enough, so why not teach it.
I was taught to fly in the '50's in the UK in a Miles Magister. When it stalled it was very inclined to spin so we were educated accordingly and it was no big issue. Upright spins, flat spins, inverted spins.
I have just been involved in putting together a spin upset program, and had a difficulty getting the academics to put a discussion of the various forms of spins into it. They only wanted to talk about normal upright spins??
We keep getting this crap that we hurt more people training than we did with real spins, perhaps we should go back to square one, and properly educate the teachers!!
If it frightens the little darlings let then take up cross stitch. It might just save their precious little behinds.
I used to fly with an *** inspector that would not do "stalls" unless I was with him?? Where do the standards start??? What sort of check rides was this guy giving?? And no I am not an aerobatic dinosaur either. I do them very rarely.
Rant over, I will get my coat and the tin hat!!
Speedbird 48.
Fully agree about teaching them properly but this need not include adding power immediately after rotation stops and whilst the nose is still below the horizon. If you get it right the power will slightly reduce the height loss but when the average bod recovers from his/her first accidental solo spin they are unlikely to coordinate power and pull correctly - the result will either be excessive height loss because of a late pull or another departure from a premature pull.
KISS is a good maxim, the possible benefits of power after the recovery (or even during!) are not necessary for the average bod and are more likely to lead to problems.
HFD
KISS is a good maxim, the possible benefits of power after the recovery (or even during!) are not necessary for the average bod and are more likely to lead to problems.
HFD