FI market in UK

[BEagle]

It is appropriate theoretical knowledge which is needed, not 'commercial' knowledge.

The core attributes are appropriate theoretical knowledge, the ability to impart instruction, own flying skills and interpersonal skills.

Knowing all about the inter-tropical convergence zone or the number of stewardesses needed in a 747 are totally irrelevant to PPL instructing.

[apruneuk]

The movement of the ITCZ has a direct bearing on our weather, in particular the movement of the Warm Sector Depressions (or Travelling Polar Front Depressions as they are also known) that dominate it. Their associated warm and cold fronts can be particularly hazardous to unwary VFR pilots.

[BEagle]

Nope, they just need to know the typical hazards and characteristics of weather in the UK, not the theory behind it. Which, in any case, is largely waffle.... Although I despair at the Fischer-Price met charts pushed out these days - no isobars. Almost as bad as the junk on BBC-TV.

Do yoiu expect PPL holders to learn how crude oil becomes aviation gasoline?

[RVR800]

Oh go on then - thats "a pass"

The problem with not having proper examinations is that one can get pilots with improper knowledge.

The PPL whole theory thing is a bit of a lottery - it's not taught at some schools at all well - most of the schools dont teach theory properly - its all to do with money - its self teaching

There is little money for it - FIC courses are invoiced on hours airborne so no incentive to do much theory for them either

Its a bit like the average flying school where they just want you in the air - everything else is not that lucrative so its up to the students if they can be bothered to read about overhead joins, aeroplane performance, navigation, weather, engines etc... lot of very poor knowledge out there for some

Its easy to assume that people know stuff - ex RAF types underestimate their own knowledge base

[QNH 1013]

"There is little money for it - FIC courses are invoiced on hours airborne so no incentive to do much theory for them either"
Well that certainly wasn't my experience. The theory was certainly not skimped or rushed on either my initial FI course, or the Aero and Instrument upgrades. All three were at different schools and I was very impressed with the tuition at them all. As far as I remember, the courses were charged as a fixed lump sum.
Are some schools running dodgy, corner-cutting FI courses?

[S-Works]

I am a firm believer that ground school should be taught by a certified ground school instructor. AOPA do a certificate for this as an expample.

The level of theory knowledge relevant to PPL training held by most FI's is pretty poor. You onloy have to see candidates panicking on the FI course when given presentations to write.

In answer to Mikeo's question, what makes you think that a CPL holder is going to be any better as an Instructor than a PPL holder? What we are trying to push for is better qualified Instructors. The PPL arena has a massive wealth of knowledge and experiance on tap with people who are prepared to do an FI course but have no desire to drive a people tube or any other commercial work outside of PPL Instruction. Tapping this resource means we will be able to have some long term consistancy in PPL training.

I don't think there will be a flood of PPL's effecting the market balance, the FI rating still has to be worked for but it will draw committed PPL FI's in and go a good way towards removing the hours builders with little interest or commitment.

I can assure you that AOPA are pushing this very hard with EASA.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Nope, I spend my time dreaming of Pamela Anderson or about having a student who knows how to use their feet without being prompted.

I do agree with having specialised ground school instructors. Most FI's simply don't have the time to teach ground school subjects and it would be better having a specialist rather than someone doing it as an "extra".

[Solar]

Unprofessional instructors

mikeo
I think that you may be suffering from a quite common misconception that afflicts most of the younger generation these days in that having a piece of paper means that you can do the job. I find increasingly that people with bits of paper tend to have a good memory with a knack of passing exams.
I had the good fortune to be taught in in the "good old days" with most of my instruction having been carried out by a farmer/instructor who made every lesson fun and most of all a valuble learning experience.
I would seriously comtemplate doing a FI course (and I am not in the first flush as they say) assuming I can pass the medical and the CPL exams as I now have some spare time throughout the year.
Our club has experienced major difficulty in getting instructors ever since the introduction of the CPL requirement and not only that a major portion of the club income is derived from gift voucher flights which again requires the CPL.

[Token Bird]

I think that you may be suffering from a quite common misconception that afflicts most of the younger generation these days in that having a piece of paper means that you can do the job

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? After all, the piece of paper does actually represent something, that is, that the person has done advanced training. We don't just pay 'X' amount of money and get presented with a piece of paper which says, 'you're a CPL, you're fab'. I think mikeo's point was more to do with the flight training side of the CPL, not the written exams.

When I was doing my FI course, there was another chap doing it who was a PPL and he seriously struggled with the course. I think getting PPLs teaching PPLs is akin to parents teaching their kids to drive! I come across a lot of PPLs when I do bi-annuals and to be honest, most of them would not stand a chance when it comes to teaching, even the more experienced ones!

Anyway, I don't think I'll bother reading this forum anymore because I'm finding it is filled with negativity. Coming on here and having to put up with ignorant people like bose-x insulting me and how I do my job is very disheartening when I take my job seriously, but am labelled a bad instructor simply because I am 'an hour-builder'.

So I think I'll leave all you narrow-minded people to talk wistfully about 'the good old days',

TB

[S-Works]

Bye then. Thanks for the visit.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I love a good well mannered debate...... It's a pity we never have any on here.

Bose, you keep saying that there is a wealth of talent and experience in the PPL world. I simply don't think that's true. Whilst holding a CPL doesn't guarantee quality, it is a lot better than the PPL. At least you have a certain level of competence.

There are PPL's out there who are extremely good and would make good FI's, but there are a far greater number who would be disasterous. Bad habits from years of flying outside a structured environment is but one of the issue that would need to be addressed.

I think the analogy about parents teaching their kid's to drive is inaccurate since they have never been through an instructors course unlike any FI.

I will bang on to the end of my days that the absolute last thing ths industry needs is a load of hobbyists FI's. What we need is more career FI's not a load of part timers and the PPL FI will do stuff all to address that.

[S-Works]

You will be a long time waiting for an apology from me! What the **** gives you the right to abuse me and then think you are in the right. Why do you think your post was donked......
The comment goes both ways, god help your students if you are as volatile in person as you are in writing. Perhaps I have struck a nerve with you, guilty concience??
I am an Instructor, but believe that a big problem with the decline in GA is people using it as a step onto "better" things while not giving a toss about the dirty footprint they leave behind.
I made it quite clear that I do not think all hours builders are wasters, you have just taken it that way. I have done considerable research on the subject for the CAA and AOPA and trust me I am not alone in my views. This is one of the prime movers in making regulatory changes towards making the PPL enviornment less attractive to hours builders.
So feel free to rant away. But perhaps if you met me and took the faceless emotion out of our communication including adding your own view of the "tone" of my posting you would discover that I am both a pleasant person and that my views are actually quite balanced rather than based on emotion.
But if you are going to hold your breath waiting for an apology from me then please make sure you have a responsible person present........

Originally Posted by Token Bird

I'd just like to say that you are a horrible person and I find it hard to believe that you are in fact 38 years old as it says in your profile, as most people would have got rid of their arrogance by your age.
I have to say, if you are an instructor, then I feel very sorry for your students. If the kind of tripe that you spout on PPRuNe resembles what you are like in real life then they will have a snowball's chance in hell of learning anything from you.
I will await your public apology on PPRuNe.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Bose has been granted 10 days to concentrate on his most pressing Aopa work. While we feel humbled by his people skills it's both selfish and foolish to keep him all to ourselves.

Regards
Rob

[essouira]

What is that goes on in people's dull lives that gets them so wound up by a forum on pprune ?????
To sum up -
Some instructors are hours-building .....
And some are career instructors .........
Ans some are good teachers and some are rubbish ......
And some are nice and some are "*****" ......
The fact that I am older doesn't mean that I am wiser and the fact that you are younger doesn't mean that you are more fun (or more gorgeous).
Can we get back to the original debate now ?
There does seem to be quite a lot of work around but it has not resulted in better pay or conditions for us instructors - does anyone think that there is a chance that one day we may start earning a decent wage ?

[VFE]

There is most definately work available for qualified flying instructors - just depends whether you're lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time. Failing that, you'll find work (albeit part-time work) somewhere if you are prepared to look around and contact the flying schools by telephone or in person. Show your face around prior to commencing the FIC and you'll be more likely to succeed post-FIC in securing work. Worked for me.

Good luck!

VFE.

[apruneuk]

If flying schools offered realistic salaries to their full-time FIs then there wouldn't be a shortage of instructors - those that want a career in aviation and have an aptitude for teaching could choose to go the FI route instead of public transport.

Sadly, allowing PPL FIs will (in my opinion) only further undermine Ts and Cs and drive down salaries. I don't doubt that there are many PPL holders with experience who would make fine instructors, in which case I don't see the harm in them gaining CPL theoretical knowledge (I did it distance learning while working full-time). Indeed, had I not had that knowledge I would have struggled on the FIC. For me it was just a question of revising what I had studied before and then being shown how to present the relevant information to my students.

It is good to have a more in-depth understanding of the subjects that you teach than you actually need for the course in question. Inevitably a FI will sometimes come across a student who actually wants to know a bit more than what is necessary to gain a piece of paper that says they are a pilot.

No doubt surgeons would love to have only studied those areas of medicine relating to cutting people up but I bet they regularly draw on their bank of knowledge gained from studying general medicine. If a particular school has weak instructors whether PPL or CPL then that is up to the CFI to sort out. Inevitably some get into teaching for the wrong reasons but arguing that having a professional qualification is worse than having an amateur one is plainly ridiculous.

[VFE]

Having canvassed for an instructor job at rather a few flying schools (at the wrong time of year - autumn/winter!) it was plainy obvious that the majority of CFI's I met were quite happy, indeed many actively encouraged instructors whose aim was to move onto airline work. One said it adds marketing potential to have potential airline material working for the school and he was happy to play a part in a pilot's career.

Only one CFI expressed concern at employing an instructor whose aim it was to fly airline however he was only one from many I talked with. I should also add that at no point did I express an intention to find airline work following a period of instructing, on the contrary, they were all very forthcoming with their open arms attitude to the dreaded 'hours building' instructor. So it just goes to show what those closest to the pulse think about this tedious debate raised time and time again on this forum. Perhaps one day we can bring it to a close and not witness thread after thread disolve into the same doggy chasing tail charade? But again I digress...

It is without doubt a great time to be an instructor, there's plenty of work going if you search for it. The sun is shining and the birds are flapping away to the sound of the farmyard airgun - the job is absolutely enthralling, totally rewarding, challenging and exciting so get stuck in, enjoy yourself and contribute something positive to the wonderful world of general aviation. The smile on a new recruit's face after their first trial lesson is worth it alone.

VFE.

[hotcloud]

I have been a PPL instructor for 10 years now and thoroughly enjoy the work. I consider myself a career part time instructor and have no wish to join the airlines. From my experience there are good and bad instructors from the pool of either career or hour building instructors. There has really been some very good and friendly hour building instructors who have made the student feel confident and special. The record keeping has been excellent and without a doubt the student has had excellent tuition, on the other hand there have been some hour builders that are arrogant and have belittled the student. I know because I have taken over some of their students and to my horror, have found the record keeping non existent. Some of my fellow career instructors are excellent, they are a rock and provide continuity and great care is taken with the record keeping. I must say though, I also find some career instructors arrogant, and if I were one of the students I would not be at ease in thier company. I consider myself rather humble, in that I have empathy for my students, I try to foster an atmosphere that is friendly, and yes fun, but at the same time inpart knowledge.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that a good instructor has the right attitude, relaxed friendly, but most of all operates with professionalism. I worked hard for my instructor rating and now have over 4000 hrs under my belt. Passing the CPL exams demonstrated that I had commitment and was serious about getting the rating. Yes it's an extra hurdle but I was prepared to do this whilst holding down a full time job, and believe me if I could live on a full time instructor wage I would be in like a shot. I have no doubt there will be some very good PPL instructors who would wish to teach without the commercial rating however it would be hardly fair to the instructors that have made the commitment by obtaining the commercial rating, and in my opinion would drive down the salary (market forces). However if a situation ever occured were there was enough work to go around, I would welcome the PPL instructor, the guys like me could still teach and receive a wage and the keen PPL instructor without the commercial rating could enjoy teaching for fun.

[excrab]

Just a few personal observations following on from some of the posts on here.

Firstly, why should PPL holders being allowed to instruct drive down terms and conditions for instructors. Historically the introduction of the BCPL and then the CPL requirement in the UK did nothing to improve Ts & Cs for most instructors, so why would the reintroduction of PPL holders instructing make them worse. They would still want to earn a decent salary, and if in the business for a career rather than just to log hours and move on would they not be less likely to accept low wages than an hours building frozen ATPL holder.

Secondly, I still fail to see (after 23 years of holding an instructors rating), what value a CPL or ATPL has over a PPL as the basic licence for an instructor - and I started out instructing with a PPL and now hold an ATPL. The sort of questions I have been asked by PPL holders and students over and above the requirements for the PPL have mainly been on subjects such as grass strips, PFA aircraft, VFR flying abroad, tailwheel conversions, aerobatics, air rallies, group flying - the list goes on but many of these things would be familiar to experienced PPL holders who might be interested in instructing, but are not touched upon in CPL/ATPL theory or on any integrated (f)ATPL course.

The main objections seems to be that those who hold a CPL think they are "better" pilots than those holding a PPL - but there is no reason that a properly conducted pre-entry skills test before the FIC course couldn't weed out anyone whose flying skills were not up to the required standard. And not having had to spend £30k - £50k on a CPL just might mean that a little more could be spent on a longer FIC course with a greater emphasis on teaching skills and less on learning to fly the aeroplane.

As far as the job market goes - it seems that the shortage at the moment is not of new FI(r) holders but experienced instructors able to teach the advanced PPL subjects (night/IMC/Aeros), as a lot of instructors coming into the industry are moving onto commercial / airline flying before they even upgrade to an unrestricted rating, let alone obtain any of the advanced ratings (except for a few going for multi or IR instructor to further their own careers). Re-introduction of PPL holding instructors being allowed to carry out renumerated instruction would reduce that tendency, especially if the hours gained instructing couldn't be counted towards the 1500 hours for the issue of an ATPL.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I have heard from many "hobby" FI's (mostly airline pilots it has to be said....) that they aren't fussed about being paid. As they have income from elsewhere and instruct as a bit of fun on the side.

There is of course space for part-time and non career FI's. Most bring a lot to the industry, but any PPL FI's should be able to be paid.

excrab, you say BCPL, CPL etc has done little for the wages of FI's? Well for the first time I've ever seen, the rates for FI's are slowly creeping into the realms of reality. You still have to look around, but there are jobs that pay more than just poverty wages. That has naff all to do with PPL FI's.

I take my guide for how things should be done from the helicopter world. They have always had PPL instructors, the difference being though, they have always been paid. So as a heli PPL FI you can earn a decent (ish) salary and guess what, you have a far higher level of experience overall.

My experience of Heli training is that in general it is of a much higher quality than fixed wing and the a/c are significantly less shabby. Yes, it's a lot more expensive, but I think the figures are simply more realistic than we have in the fixed wing world.

So unless the PPL-FI can be paid, we will simply be turning the clock back and destroying the PPL training industry all over again. Only, this time, it may be irrecoverable.