Documents required on an instructional flight

[mungo_55]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what documents you're legally required to carry on an instructional flight ? I've been going over a Trevor Thom book which says instruction counts as aerial work. For aerial work you seem to need a radio license, C of A, pilots licenses, Tech Log and Certificate of Registration. For a private flight you seem to require none of these, though it does say that hired aeroplanes fall into the transport category, so maybe club aircraft need documents to be carried when hired.

The reason I'm asking is that in all the instruction I've had in the UK I don't remember us carrying these documents around. Still, I haven't always been the most observant student !

Any info much appreciated.

[Whopity]

Start with the correct book, the ANO http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF

Article 86 which refers you to Schedule 10, also gives a proviso:

If the flight is intended to begin and end at the same aerodrome and does not include passage over the territory of any country other than the United Kingdom, the documents may be kept at that aerodrome instead of being carried in the aircraft.

Schedule 10 gives the following for Aerial Work flights:

Aircraft Radio Licence
Certificate of Airworthines
Flight Crew Licences
Certificate of Maintenance Review
Technical Log
Certificate of Registration
Interception Procedures
Article 16 Permissions if any.

The ones in blue are NOT required on a private flight.
The C of A is now issued by EASA under an EU Directive and must be carried on all flights (the original, not a copy), the exemption in Article 86 does not apply to EU legislation.

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by Whopity

The ones in blue are NOT required on a private flight.

And the ones in black (with the exception of the C of A as noted) are only required on international private flights.

[2close]

I've always wondered about the X-Country flights, where you will (eventually) be landing at the aerodrome you started off from but making landings out - therefore, each 'flight' does not start and end at the same aerodrome. Strictly speaking you should carry ALL required Sch.10 documents but feet on the ground, is there any need?

The other thing, is it acceptable to carry certified true copies in the aircraft with the originals held at a secure location?

After all, if the unthinkable happened it is the originals that would be of most benefit to investigators / insurers / defendants.

2close

[Keygrip]

2close - since when have the CAA actually said something and meant it?

They change their view on the same subject depending on who is asking the question - and when and why.

I had this discussion with them many years ago. If the flight lands at another airport then it CANNOT be classed as being "one flight" so documents should be carried.

"Oh, no" was the response, "if the aircraft is intending to come back to the same airfield then we will class it as one flight".

"OK" - says I, "so it's just one entry in the log book then?".

"Oh, no" was the response, "if the aircraft lands at another airfield then it is clearly more than one flight, therefore requires more than one log book entry".

Basically - they don't have a clue. They just spout any regulation that covers the point - but when you quiz them on it they'll say something else.

Same with their golden book, Lasors. Alll the rules and requirements are in there, they say. Lasors is wrong, they also say.

Others also tell me that the ANO is wrong, too.

[Whopity]

Others also tell me that the ANO is wrong, too.

Wait for the next amendment, it supposed to correct some of the "errors" but not all errors!

[Keygrip]

The ANO is not exactly a new book. For such a so-called professional company I would have thought the CAA should be able to get it right.

[Jinkster]

When i did my FI rating I understood that the CoA had to be carried in the aeroplane at all time......however has anyone seen one? I sure havent!!

[Whopity]

When you are the PIC its your responsibility. Would you drive someone elses car without an MOT and plead ignorance?

[BEagle]

I wouldn't expect to have to carry the MoT in the car though.

Utterly daft to expect the CofA to be carried on all instructional flights within the UK FIR. A copy, perhaps - but why? The original should more sensibly be kept safely on the ground. Worst case - aircraft crashes and burns out completely. Where is the C of A? Err - this bit of ash here, I think?

So - a flight that lands at another aerodrome and then comes back again may (or may not) be considered 'one flight', depending on which Belgranist one talks to?

Student flies 3 flights A to B, B to C, C to A. Three separate flights? Not for FI '25 solo sign off' purposes, according to LASORS.

Student flies 3 flights. Walk out, start up, take-off, fly 1 circuit, land, taxy in, shut down, get out and walk to club. Repeat x 2. 3 separate flights - nothing to say they're not......

Daft ideas can spring from the Belgrano before their impact has been properly addressed.

[BillieBob]

Utterly daft to expect the CofA to be carried on all instructional flights within the UK FIR...........Daft ideas can spring from the Belgrano before their impact has been properly addressed.

Except that the requirement to carry the CoA on all flights has nothing whatever to do with the Belgrano, it is a requirement of EASA and, as such, is European law. There is nothing you, I, the Belgrano or even the UK Government can do about it.

[mungo_55]

Thanks for the replies. Piecing it together out of CAP 393 as suggested, WHOPITY seems pretty spot on, though it seems the Interception Procedures and Certificate of Registration only seem to be necessary on an instructional flight involved in international navigation.

As I think has been mentioned though, what the rules are and what actually happens are probably two different things ! Sounds like the CAA have been aware of the impracticality of this in the past too.