Power on Stalls
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Try this for a likely scenario - Full power climb out, nose too high so the speed is low - and then retract the flaps. This is the sort of error it is only too easy to make.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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On final approach the power is usually below 50%.
Also, I agree that it would be very useful to explain to a student why retracting flap on take off ergo full power stall is a dangerous scenario but the requirement to actually invite danger to myself and student by demonstrating it is not so necessary IMHO. You don't need to stick someones hand into a fire to inform them that it'll hurt.
There are better ways of bringing gun-ho students down a peg or two than quasi-aerobatic stalls which unless you've been properly trained yourself is highly irresponsible and could end in tears. Installing a proper understanding on the ground in front of the whiteboard, impressing the dangers onto the student with scary tales of fallen fellow flyers should suffice unless they're thick as sh*t.... in which case you should ask yourself whether flying is something you ought to be teaching them anyway!
VFE.
I agree that it should be done safely - with a competant and confident instructor, at a suitable height. But simply talking about it won't hammer the point...
Think of the money we could save students simply by talking about flying.
Then again, they'd probably have to buy our beers.
Think of the money we could save students simply by talking about flying.
Then again, they'd probably have to buy our beers.
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OK lets put this to bed.
Examine this document
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1157.pdf
As you can plainly see during an SEP skills test us examiners CAN ask for this type of stall from the student.
In general you will only find this in JAR-FCL in the syllabus per se for IR(A) and CPL/ATPL. However, as we examiners can test it for SEP class ratigns (which is what the JAR-PPL skills test includes) - I therefore suggest that ALL instructors teach incipient recoveries from this position - anyway the incipient is a no-brainer anyway...far less interesting than the full developed stall
<grin>
I certainly added this to Ex10B.2 to cover this eventuality after one of my students had an examiner ask them to demonstrate this sort of recovery.
VFE You should read the accident statistics and GASIL more often - climb-out spin-ins are more common than you may think - this is exactly the situation we are talking about demonstrating here. quasi-aerobatic? No. Sensible training. We are trying to stop a number of climb-out spins occuring here.
WRT dangerous...try a C152 with full flap and full power - i.e. a very botched go-around - and yes I have seen a student do this to me before..tell them to pull the nose to the Vx climb rather than the Vy simulating a botched go-around from a strip with obstacles. The result if allowed to go fully developed is fairly impressive - and I use this to teach Ex11A. Which of course you DO all teach EX11A dont you...
Just some thoughts...
Examine this document
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1157.pdf
As you can plainly see during an SEP skills test us examiners CAN ask for this type of stall from the student.
In general you will only find this in JAR-FCL in the syllabus per se for IR(A) and CPL/ATPL. However, as we examiners can test it for SEP class ratigns (which is what the JAR-PPL skills test includes) - I therefore suggest that ALL instructors teach incipient recoveries from this position - anyway the incipient is a no-brainer anyway...far less interesting than the full developed stall
<grin>I certainly added this to Ex10B.2 to cover this eventuality after one of my students had an examiner ask them to demonstrate this sort of recovery.
VFE You should read the accident statistics and GASIL more often - climb-out spin-ins are more common than you may think - this is exactly the situation we are talking about demonstrating here. quasi-aerobatic? No. Sensible training. We are trying to stop a number of climb-out spins occuring here.
WRT dangerous...try a C152 with full flap and full power - i.e. a very botched go-around - and yes I have seen a student do this to me before..tell them to pull the nose to the Vx climb rather than the Vy simulating a botched go-around from a strip with obstacles. The result if allowed to go fully developed is fairly impressive - and I use this to teach Ex11A. Which of course you DO all teach EX11A dont you...
Just some thoughts...
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Excellent and very good points in this thread so far ,
The main purpose of the exercise is Recognition and Recovery
As much fun as it is to fly a stalled aircraft in training ,as you really have to force it to stall as most modern trainers are designed not to stall and requires a lot of effort to keep it stalled .
The experience of flying a stalled airplane and the recovery process comes in handy if you ever get caught in turbulant air that is trying to stall the aircraft at it's cruise airspeed and throw you out of the sky.I have heard the stall horn come on at cruise speed in turbulance and have had to use the smoothest of control imputs to keep the greasy side down.
It can be a challenge to keep the airplane below manuevering speed and well above the stall speed when the stall horn is blaring as the airflow violently changes around the wing.The gentle introduction of the violent stall characteristics of your aircraft will save your bacon if you get caught on the wrong side of a mountain wave or valley inflow /outflow or if you are unlucky to find yourself in a CB.
It's all about getting skills that you hope you never need
The main purpose of the exercise is Recognition and Recovery
As much fun as it is to fly a stalled aircraft in training ,as you really have to force it to stall as most modern trainers are designed not to stall and requires a lot of effort to keep it stalled .
The experience of flying a stalled airplane and the recovery process comes in handy if you ever get caught in turbulant air that is trying to stall the aircraft at it's cruise airspeed and throw you out of the sky.I have heard the stall horn come on at cruise speed in turbulance and have had to use the smoothest of control imputs to keep the greasy side down.
It can be a challenge to keep the airplane below manuevering speed and well above the stall speed when the stall horn is blaring as the airflow violently changes around the wing.The gentle introduction of the violent stall characteristics of your aircraft will save your bacon if you get caught on the wrong side of a mountain wave or valley inflow /outflow or if you are unlucky to find yourself in a CB.
It's all about getting skills that you hope you never need
Good points 2R, excpet for your comment about the 'challenge' to stall a modern aircraft.
People keep stalling them by mistake, regardless of configuration, power, AOB, time of day, generally at a height not sufficient for recovery, and they pay the price for it. Half of them probably never figured out what was happening.
And the so called magical 'stall speed' is only a 1G speed, with the slip ball in the centre.
In my opinion (and I've been through both civilian and military flying training) these more extreme stalls should be practised - in an aerobatic aircraft if neccessary.
People keep stalling them by mistake, regardless of configuration, power, AOB, time of day, generally at a height not sufficient for recovery, and they pay the price for it. Half of them probably never figured out what was happening.
And the so called magical 'stall speed' is only a 1G speed, with the slip ball in the centre.
In my opinion (and I've been through both civilian and military flying training) these more extreme stalls should be practised - in an aerobatic aircraft if neccessary.
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I have been watching this thread for awhile and its interesting to note the ignorance that abounds. The quote above is a classic example of a statement which is vague, incorrect and misleading and if you are an instructor i would suggest you do not instruct again untill you do some re-training, in fact if you were a student and demonstrated that poor level of understanding i would not allow you to fly solo
Using your quote perhaps you should approach the CAA and ask them to remove stalling from the syllabus as its obviously no longer a concern.
Airbus, would you like to list the types of aircraft that mangaged to get CAA approval and registration in this country that do not have warning of an impending stall. I think what you meant was that some aircraft have sufficient aerodynamic warning of an approaching stall that they do not need a mechanical or electrical warning of the stall. Saying that some aircraft do not have warning of a stall is ridiculous, saying that some electrical or pneumatic stall warners can become unservicable and surpise pilots who were unaware of the need to preflight these items might be more useful
What is the problem with stalling a light aircraft with full power at a safe altitude anyway? In my experience its only been the fear of the instructor thats prevents high power stalls. When you think that the aircraft you are training on is most likely approved for spinning and that I would suggest is a little bit vicious than a full power stall, what is the problem?
When talking about a PPL syllabus consider that any flying school owner/CFI can write his/her own syllabus with any type of power stalls or configurations. If there was a statement in the flight manual that cautioned or prevented full power stalls that would be different.
The important thing to get over to the student is that an unintentional stall at low altitude, such as in the circuit, is very likely to be terminal. The way each instructor teaches this will obviously vary but it needs a liitle bit more care than is given by the 'tick in the box' instructor. It is the one exercise that the student needs to understand completly and be able to show 100% capability.
What is required in a test is not the same as is required in a syllabus of training, unless of course you are the sort of instructor who trains only for the test.
in my experience it would help if instructors left folk lore in the bar and actually read and practiced the syllabus they are employed to teach rather than introduce their own modifications mainly based on laziness and ignorance.
Amen
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The power on stall is called a departure stall in the USA.
I stand by what i said and find your comments about ignorance to be rude and discourteous. Hardly the type of language that is constructive or expected on a professional pilots forum.
Where we do agree is the fear that some instructors have of the stall .
IIanfairpg for some reason you think your opinion has more value that the others on here .Why is that ?
Up yer Kilt
I used to try and cure the fear that my new instructors had of the stall by playing them a nice tune on the stall horn (power off)
and flying the airplane fully stalled (at a safe height).
The important part is the recovery and i will not bore you with that as most of you know that it is important to unload the wing and and power up smoothly anticipating the effects of power on the aircraft attitude at slow speeds and controlling the expexted yaw before it becomes .
Go to go i think it is my shout at the bar Cheers
I stand by what i said and find your comments about ignorance to be rude and discourteous. Hardly the type of language that is constructive or expected on a professional pilots forum.
Where we do agree is the fear that some instructors have of the stall .
IIanfairpg for some reason you think your opinion has more value that the others on here .Why is that ?
Up yer Kilt
I used to try and cure the fear that my new instructors had of the stall by playing them a nice tune on the stall horn (power off)
and flying the airplane fully stalled (at a safe height).
The important part is the recovery and i will not bore you with that as most of you know that it is important to unload the wing and and power up smoothly anticipating the effects of power on the aircraft attitude at slow speeds and controlling the expexted yaw before it becomes .
Go to go i think it is my shout at the bar Cheers
Last edited by 2R; 29th Nov 2006 at 16:28.
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Not all aircraft do buffet noticeably before the stall has developed to a situation where the SSR must be employed rather than an incipient recovery. Also true.
My comment that the "stall warner" may or may not work when needed is just an aside. Yes, I would advocate checking the buzzer makes a sound pre-flight, and indeed do. If I was flying and noticed that my airspeed was low and attitude was higher than it ought to be, however, I would not think this OK just because I couldn't hear the buzzer, nor would I expect that anybody else would. It's a back-up, and my point is that its unserviceability should not (talking specifically of light primary trainers) mean the difference between a stall or not.
Maybe my previous paragraph is a matter of opinion, but please don't call me ridiculous for stating facts that I know to be true.
I agree with the rest of the things you say, however, you seem to have summed up the answer to the original question as I see it.
Last edited by Airbus38; 29th Nov 2006 at 23:28. Reason: ambiguity!
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Warnings
The last post is quite correct a number of aircraft do not have a stall warning device nor a particularly obvious indication of the impending stall such as a buffet etc., the Piper PA24 Comanche being one. Sloppy controls and poor response still remains the best warning. Attitude - take care with that one. Attitude v what?
As for the checking the stall warner function when fitted. There is little the pilot can do other than check if the thing works; moving it by hand in the case of the micro-switch variety or by sucking through a hanky in the case of the type fitted on many Cessna. But this doesn't check the setting is correct. If the setting is incorrect the warner could activate far too early with no meaning or far too late.
EASA in its wisdom has removed the requirement of the C of A test flight which was conducted by pilots approved by the CAA. Expect to find an increasing number of mis-set stall warners.
As for the checking the stall warner function when fitted. There is little the pilot can do other than check if the thing works; moving it by hand in the case of the micro-switch variety or by sucking through a hanky in the case of the type fitted on many Cessna. But this doesn't check the setting is correct. If the setting is incorrect the warner could activate far too early with no meaning or far too late.
EASA in its wisdom has removed the requirement of the C of A test flight which was conducted by pilots approved by the CAA. Expect to find an increasing number of mis-set stall warners.
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I know, I agonised a little over how to sum up the best way to describe how I would normally detect an incipient stall. I went for "attitude was higher than it ought to be" which i concede is sloppy, but true for your majority of situations.
Quite right for picking that up though.
Agree 100% about the stall warner. You can check it makes a noise, but it's a bit like a smoke alarm...pushing the button only reveals it responds to 'finger' and not to smoke!
Quite right for picking that up though.
Agree 100% about the stall warner. You can check it makes a noise, but it's a bit like a smoke alarm...pushing the button only reveals it responds to 'finger' and not to smoke!
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Common sense
Stalls on full power do feature in accidents (take-off with high weight usually; edge of performance envelope) - why not teach students to recover - its just a bit of basic rudder and stick after all!
The FAA are just using common sense (something lacking in the JAA world sometimes)
The FAA are just using common sense (something lacking in the JAA world sometimes)
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Hi All
I have been reading this thread with interest.
Even though I am NOT an instructor, can I pass on a personal experience?
Low hours PPL (Me, no IMC) flying over Bodmin moor on the way back from Scilly, 3500' with broken cloud at 2500' - in sight of ground so perfectly legal. I could see at least 30 miles ahead that the ground was illuminated by sunlight, so no risk of the cloud closing in under me.
Then about 4 miles ahead I saw a patch of rising cumulus cloud with a V shaped top whichI reckoned the top of which was maybe another 500'
No problem, thinks I, and puts on full power and easing back on the stick, I'll just go over the top of it.
I was watching the approaching cloud and hadn't even glanced at the instruments for some minutes.
The next thing I knew, I had entered the cloud, completely white out, with the stall warner blarting!
Couldn't be much worse, non IMC in a full power on stall in cloud!
I panicked and pushed the stick forward, and for some reason still unknown to me banked to the right. Fortunately we broke out of the cloud i a few seconds and I was able to roll level and back under control.
However, I could have easily entered a spin.
It took me a good 20 minutes to stop shaking.
Lesson learnt the hard way, and I am now IMC rated!
Just goes to show it can happen...............!
regards
OM
I have been reading this thread with interest.
Even though I am NOT an instructor, can I pass on a personal experience?
Low hours PPL (Me, no IMC) flying over Bodmin moor on the way back from Scilly, 3500' with broken cloud at 2500' - in sight of ground so perfectly legal. I could see at least 30 miles ahead that the ground was illuminated by sunlight, so no risk of the cloud closing in under me.
Then about 4 miles ahead I saw a patch of rising cumulus cloud with a V shaped top whichI reckoned the top of which was maybe another 500'
No problem, thinks I, and puts on full power and easing back on the stick, I'll just go over the top of it.
I was watching the approaching cloud and hadn't even glanced at the instruments for some minutes.
The next thing I knew, I had entered the cloud, completely white out, with the stall warner blarting!
Couldn't be much worse, non IMC in a full power on stall in cloud!
I panicked and pushed the stick forward, and for some reason still unknown to me banked to the right. Fortunately we broke out of the cloud i a few seconds and I was able to roll level and back under control.
However, I could have easily entered a spin.
It took me a good 20 minutes to stop shaking.
Lesson learnt the hard way, and I am now IMC rated!
Just goes to show it can happen...............!
regards
OM
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Run away from clouds if you are not instrument rated as the stains can be hard to get out of the seats 
Wait until your radar craps out and you are getting tossed around like a rag doll in a CB ,i do not know what is more scarey the lightning or the up and downdrafts .Lots of speedbumps in some clouds i guess that why they made a new and improved tide with stainbuster
Wait until your radar craps out and you are getting tossed around like a rag doll in a CB ,i do not know what is more scarey the lightning or the up and downdrafts .Lots of speedbumps in some clouds i guess that why they made a new and improved tide with stainbuster
