Beijing Panam Mid Air Collision
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot in Command
QUOTE FROM DAIMOND GIRL "I would like to keep my posting as professional as possible, and not fall into the corruption and finger pointing that is going on in this particular thread. Aviation is for professionals, and I would like to maintain my professionalism.
However, I do have some concerns over the 1st accident that was mentioned regarding PanAm. I am somewhat familiar with the FAR's and aeronautical decision making. I am not versed at all in the Chinese Regulations, but I would gamble to assume they are near those of the FAA.
My first concern is the regulatory requirement for acting as pilot in command. The FAR's clearly state that "The pilot in command is directly responsible for, and is the final authority to the operation of an aircraft." The FAR's further state that "In an emergency a pilot may deviate from any rule of this part..." It appears to me that the pilot in command, who I assume at that time was the Chief Instructor, did not take command of the aircraft and exercise his authority under the regulations. He could have refused to accept that clearance based on the unsafe conditions.
My second concern is if the wind was actually gusting to 70 knots, why would you turn an airplane downwind and taxi in those conditions? This is disturbing to me."
Daimond Girl. In any other country it may have been possible to divert to another location and land safely but this was in China.
All other airports that could have been used as an alternate had these strong winds forecast. But you see the alternate airports were more than 1 hours flight time away as we were not allowed to use air force bases under any circumstances. In China you require 24 hours notice before you commence a flight. If the pilot in command had been ordered by ATC to land but had decided to fly to another airport without clearance then the air force would have been scrambled. At that time no VFR maps had been issued and the aircraft did not carry IFR plates. Special security passes were required for cross country flights but these had not been issued to the pilots. Had the pilot diverted to another airport and could not land there because of the wind conditions they could have found themselves in a serious fuel condition. Aviation fuel was not available at those airports either had they been able to land. When the pilot landed there was no wind information given to them by the control tower and visibility was almost zero from sand and dust and would have been very difficult to determine wind direction and strength. Taking all these things into consideration I am sure that most pilots would have done the same. In the end had the METAR information been correct and the information given to the tower by the air force been used then I am sure no one would have been flying and the accident would not have happened.
However, I do have some concerns over the 1st accident that was mentioned regarding PanAm. I am somewhat familiar with the FAR's and aeronautical decision making. I am not versed at all in the Chinese Regulations, but I would gamble to assume they are near those of the FAA.
My first concern is the regulatory requirement for acting as pilot in command. The FAR's clearly state that "The pilot in command is directly responsible for, and is the final authority to the operation of an aircraft." The FAR's further state that "In an emergency a pilot may deviate from any rule of this part..." It appears to me that the pilot in command, who I assume at that time was the Chief Instructor, did not take command of the aircraft and exercise his authority under the regulations. He could have refused to accept that clearance based on the unsafe conditions.
My second concern is if the wind was actually gusting to 70 knots, why would you turn an airplane downwind and taxi in those conditions? This is disturbing to me."
Daimond Girl. In any other country it may have been possible to divert to another location and land safely but this was in China.
All other airports that could have been used as an alternate had these strong winds forecast. But you see the alternate airports were more than 1 hours flight time away as we were not allowed to use air force bases under any circumstances. In China you require 24 hours notice before you commence a flight. If the pilot in command had been ordered by ATC to land but had decided to fly to another airport without clearance then the air force would have been scrambled. At that time no VFR maps had been issued and the aircraft did not carry IFR plates. Special security passes were required for cross country flights but these had not been issued to the pilots. Had the pilot diverted to another airport and could not land there because of the wind conditions they could have found themselves in a serious fuel condition. Aviation fuel was not available at those airports either had they been able to land. When the pilot landed there was no wind information given to them by the control tower and visibility was almost zero from sand and dust and would have been very difficult to determine wind direction and strength. Taking all these things into consideration I am sure that most pilots would have done the same. In the end had the METAR information been correct and the information given to the tower by the air force been used then I am sure no one would have been flying and the accident would not have happened.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Union City, NJ
Age: 44
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have to agree with Howard regarding the accident on the ground. If the Chief pilot landed safety he/she should of stopped that plane on a taxiway and had someone come out and help them push the plane to parking. Any pilot knows that you don't taxi or land a plane with a 70 knots wind. It is a miracle that the plane landed safety.
In regards to MexicanJack. Dude, you have to chill. I understand that you were sold a bunch of lies, but you are acting childish. You could make your point and be respected much more if you took out the attacks.
I was weary about joining Pan Am. Last December 2005 I made a trip out to China for some sighting seeing and to visit the academy first hand. Back then Pat was also telling me about the problems that they were encountering like no VFR maps, no cross country routes, restricted airspace, very little flying, etc. When a school starts up especially in a Communist country you have to give it time for the kinks to be workd out. People seem to forget that China is a third world country. China is in no way like the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc.
After all my research I have made the decision to join Pan Am in Dec. Hope to meet new people and add something nice to my resume.
In regards to MexicanJack. Dude, you have to chill. I understand that you were sold a bunch of lies, but you are acting childish. You could make your point and be respected much more if you took out the attacks.
I was weary about joining Pan Am. Last December 2005 I made a trip out to China for some sighting seeing and to visit the academy first hand. Back then Pat was also telling me about the problems that they were encountering like no VFR maps, no cross country routes, restricted airspace, very little flying, etc. When a school starts up especially in a Communist country you have to give it time for the kinks to be workd out. People seem to forget that China is a third world country. China is in no way like the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc.
After all my research I have made the decision to join Pan Am in Dec. Hope to meet new people and add something nice to my resume.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Anywere
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get Informed
Hi to all!
There is a lot of half truths and a lot of anger. The reason is that most of people that work there are frustrated.
Management not Pat or Howard (they are the middle man) do not make sense to the flight instructor working there. Things would happen and then one instructor will start asking if he knew anything about it. It was a HUGE rumor mill that some management even laugh about it (it used to infuriated me when management tells me “you know!... the rumor mill....” I am like “Fix it M.F. Informed the people” thinking to myself.
We need PC's but they buy paintings for example.
Accidents happens, but when you have five or six prop strikes and you do not do an investigation on why do we hit this props so often, It can of leaves you wondering.....(did they ever open or look at the engines with the prop strikes......?) Can you tell me that Safety is paramount? Getting the people done by a date was.
If you have no flight time and need a job, likes adventure and travel, it might be your place.
I personally did not have a bad time. Could have been better, yes, with a bit, only a bit of thinking.
If you thinking of going to China, look at more forums, read about it, talk with the people, belive half! Look at who is th person who post, how long and how many posts they have, etc.
But know this. You are nothing to the chines is why you will not be informed of nothing ahead of time. They are brutally racist to us and between them.
I could talk A LOT about the company good and bad if you seriously considering going I can tell you what is going on or putting you in contact with some of the people there. I could put examples of everything but like EGGY said that will take tooooooo long.
How can I explain it. It feels like two friends were watching “Wings” for the first time and said, hey we can teach people how to fly and Peter has an Airport in his “dominions” so we make a flight school.
There is a lot of half truths and a lot of anger. The reason is that most of people that work there are frustrated.
Management not Pat or Howard (they are the middle man) do not make sense to the flight instructor working there. Things would happen and then one instructor will start asking if he knew anything about it. It was a HUGE rumor mill that some management even laugh about it (it used to infuriated me when management tells me “you know!... the rumor mill....” I am like “Fix it M.F. Informed the people” thinking to myself.
We need PC's but they buy paintings for example.
Accidents happens, but when you have five or six prop strikes and you do not do an investigation on why do we hit this props so often, It can of leaves you wondering.....(did they ever open or look at the engines with the prop strikes......?) Can you tell me that Safety is paramount? Getting the people done by a date was.
If you have no flight time and need a job, likes adventure and travel, it might be your place.
I personally did not have a bad time. Could have been better, yes, with a bit, only a bit of thinking.
If you thinking of going to China, look at more forums, read about it, talk with the people, belive half! Look at who is th person who post, how long and how many posts they have, etc.
But know this. You are nothing to the chines is why you will not be informed of nothing ahead of time. They are brutally racist to us and between them.
I could talk A LOT about the company good and bad if you seriously considering going I can tell you what is going on or putting you in contact with some of the people there. I could put examples of everything but like EGGY said that will take tooooooo long.
How can I explain it. It feels like two friends were watching “Wings” for the first time and said, hey we can teach people how to fly and Peter has an Airport in his “dominions” so we make a flight school.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wichita, KS USA
Age: 44
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like I'm going to BPA
I appriciate all the postings on here and have had some pretty frank conversations about the country and conditions. It looks like I'll be going to China on Nov 14.
For those who have been: what did you wish you had brought that you hadn't thaught of?
I'm certainly bringing a lot of extra things like toothpaste and shompoo only because I used to live with a girl from Hong Kong and know that most of the products I'm familiar with are not availiable. I've heard that the hotel only has bath tubs, anyone know of some type of shower adapter-type-aparatus that I could McGyver into place to get a descent shower?
I'm bringing a few weeks of malaria meds so I can go south when I get some off-time. How hard was it to travel in the region (say to Thailand or Vietnam)?
I saw 20+ Cessna 172s and 182s the other day that are being installed in shipping containers in Wichita, KS and sent to China. Anyone know where they might be headed? BPA getting some competition?
For those who have been: what did you wish you had brought that you hadn't thaught of?
I'm certainly bringing a lot of extra things like toothpaste and shompoo only because I used to live with a girl from Hong Kong and know that most of the products I'm familiar with are not availiable. I've heard that the hotel only has bath tubs, anyone know of some type of shower adapter-type-aparatus that I could McGyver into place to get a descent shower?
I'm bringing a few weeks of malaria meds so I can go south when I get some off-time. How hard was it to travel in the region (say to Thailand or Vietnam)?
I saw 20+ Cessna 172s and 182s the other day that are being installed in shipping containers in Wichita, KS and sent to China. Anyone know where they might be headed? BPA getting some competition?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida and the rest of the world
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Both hotels in Shijiazhuang have showers.
The C172s are likely headed for CAFUC, the Chinese aviation college based in Sichuan province.
Pat Murphy
The C172s are likely headed for CAFUC, the Chinese aviation college based in Sichuan province.
Pat Murphy
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, China
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, and as for toothpaste, http://www.stof.com.cn/b2c/detail.as...&pid=26&sid=20 .. looks like a Colgate clone, though
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wichita, KS USA
Age: 44
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
alternate bases
Could Patrick or anyone else there give us a current count of the other bases being used? I'm aware of SJZ and the one in Mongolia, isn't there another to the south that is coming on line?
