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The Wizwheel, time to say good bye?

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The Wizwheel, time to say good bye?

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Old 12th Jun 2006, 13:31
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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"BEagle:
who's teaching people to use still air planning at medium level if the wind is 'less than about 10 kts'?"


The RAF, it seems... "d. Still-air planning is to be used. When the wind speed is greater than about 10 kts, MDR techniques should be used."

"The advantage of using MDR for pre-flight planning is that the techniques are then fresh if you need to plan a diversion. How many non-mil pilots have you flown with on refreshers or LST/LPCs who pre-plan with a wizzwheel and can still plan and fly a diversion properly?"

Virtually all the non-mil pilots I've flown with have been able to use MDR for the diversion aspect of the PPL Skill Test - because we teach them how to. Whereas most of the RAF pilots I've flown with doing their PPLs cannot accurately calculate an ETA pre-flight as they have no idea how to - it seems that nowadays they aren't taught how to use a whizz-wheel (or even an electronic equivalent) during elementary flying training. Fortunately the Army and RN do still teach this basic part of every pilots' education...

Best though was the naval rotary mate doing his diversion. No MDR for him - from a big bag behind him he produced a selection of pens, planning jobbers and a whizz-wheel. I was waiting for the big brass dividers and the pusser's parallel rule! To his credit he managed to juggle with all this kit, look out of the window and fly the aircraft at the same time and his ETA was spot on time!

Incidentally, I am entirely happy for pilots doing the nav section of the renewal LST / revalidation LPC to use GPS if they do so properly.
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Old 12th Jun 2006, 14:22
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Personally I hate the CRP's, but I find my little Jepp wheel invaluble.

Pre-flight planning should be as accurate as possible, even though we aren't able to fly to within a deg. or two and the w/v is an approximation sometimes, why build more error into it in the first place?

Using something like the clockcode whilst in flight is a very sensible thing, but expecting people to do fairly complex calculations in their head without making a mistake is asking a bit much unless these are practiced regularily. This goes for pre-flight planning aswell.

I'm very surprised to hear that the RAF don't teach what I consider to be a fairly fundamental thing. I suppose 10 kts of drift doesn't matter as much when you are doing 600+kts!
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Old 12th Jun 2006, 14:51
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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"Virtually all the non-mil pilots I've flown with have been able to use MDR for the diversion aspect of the PPL Skill Test - because we teach them how to." - I was thinking more of the people who come back for refresher or LPC/LST flying and have only used wizz wheels for planning and not practised MDR for a few years. IME they've usually forgotten how to plan a diversion whereas if they had practised the techniques for pre-flight planning (even to check wizz wheel output) they would be totally up to speed when needed.

I haven't had anyone want to use a GPS, but I'd expect them to do the normal planning and map/plog prep then use the GPS for en-route guidance, keeping a written log in case it goes belly up.

HFD
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Old 12th Jun 2006, 16:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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There is a rather more basic consideration here, which appears to have been overlooked.

Flying is not a cheap hobby. It's not like F1 racing but it does cost more than fishing.

Currently, most people who enter GA don't get very far. They barely have enough to do a PPL; most pack it in soon after. A number of reasons no doubt; money is one (but they must have known!!), lack of utility is another (most rentable planes are crap), crap social scene (most airfields are full of anoraks, and most prospective passengers won't fly in crap old planes).

Now stand next to the M25 (or any other road) and count the £50,000 cars. Due to all the tax changes, many of them won't be company cars. Even fewer of the copious quantities of £100,000 cars will be company cars. There is a lot of money about. Most of the drivers are executives or people at the top of their profession - not the stereotype stupid people with inheritances.

Here's a question for the instructors: how many people with a realistic flying budget (PPL and post-PPL) do you see, as a percentage of all punters that get past the first lesson?

So, why do so many apparently good pilot candidates avoid GA? May I suggest a few factors:

1. A desire to keep everything in the past
2. Outdated procedures (the circular slide rule is a really good example) when it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there are better ways
3. Anoraks everywhere (result of 1 2 4)
4. Lack of women (result of 3, mainly)

So, while one is debating the circular slide rule and how brilliant it is for sorting the men from the sheep, anybody with a brain (and a car whose wheels won't fall off anytime soon, probably with a GPS in the car) who gets anywhere near a trial lesson, will politely smile, turn around and walk out again.

It's a very quaint scene around airfields, old chaps, with the tea, the cakes, the WW1 biplanes with pilots (mostly in their 60s and 70s) in leather caps and leather jackets.

I am sure re-arranging chairs on the Titanic was a fun job, too.

It's time to move on, ditch all this old rubbish and drag GA kicking and screaming into the 20th century.

Will it happen? No way. My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFR GA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity.
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Old 12th Jun 2006, 17:20
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Although I find the whizz-wheel pretty simple to use, I have no problem with people who prefer to use elctronic or on-line methods. But however they do it, they should be able to minimise error pre-flight as Say again Slowly states.

Now it's invention time. Let's have an on-line UK navigation tool with accurate wind/temp information. I want to be able to specify or drag-and-drop my start point, turning points and destination onto an up-to-date electronic chart (a bit like MS Autoroute!). I then tell it my IAS and leg cruising levels and select 'create plan' - it should know all about variation etc automatically. Then download it onto a USB stick and trot off to the aerodrome. At the aerodrome I insert my USB stick into a planning computer - and ask it to apply current met info and ETD to the plan. Also to warn me of any pertinent NOTAMs within a specified distance of the route.

Then take the plan with winds-of-the-day and insert it into my aircraft's mini-FMS USB port. When I get airborne, this monitors my actual v. planned route using GPS and nags me if I get off track or near wherever any NOTAM'd restrictions are....

Although currently I still fly with a chinagraph line on a map, surely the next generation of GPS units should be able to accept a USB stick with a standard format route plan? Or maybe they already can?

The aeroplane would be of modern lightweight design and construction with a FADEC controlled efficient engine - not a 1950's combine harvester gas guzzler!

And perhaps come with an optional aerosol can of 'Olde Aviator' odorant to appease the anoraks?
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Old 12th Jun 2006, 18:18
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Beagle

You can do most of that right now.

You can plan a route with Navbox, print off a wind-corrected plog, print off the (rather rough) map, load the route into a handheld GPS, and fly it.

You still have to go to ais.org.uk for the narrow route briefing but that's only a few mins. Most of what comes out is rubbish anyway.

Similarly for the weather - for most local VFR hacking, Avbrief will deliver the data in minutes.

Still need the printed chart to plan for CAS, MSA, etc.

One could write a checklist for this process.

Little spanners in the works are:

No IFR GPS can be preloaded, but there are non-IFR panel mounts (which are actually perfectly good for IFR) which can be.

The only way to print off proper enroute VFR chart sections is to buy Jeppesen Flitestar and the VFR Raster Charts add-on; then you have the dog's bo11***s but it's not cheap. With their now-obsolete Flitemap you could run a moving map GPS over the planned route, too.

"Serious" pilots have been doing this stuff for years.

The expensive bit is of course the modern plane, but if you just want VFR and 2 seats you can get that too. Less choice and a lot more money for IFR. It's happening. But it will happen too late for the UK GA scene. The training process needs a complete overhaul first, attitudes first.
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Old 12th Jun 2006, 21:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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IO540,

Do you know whether or not Navbox works with a Garmin 96C?

Also, I believe there are two versions of Navbox. Is it any use getting the more expensive version for the average VFR bimbler?

Cheers,

C23
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Old 13th Jun 2006, 09:15
  #28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BEagle
"BEagle:
who's teaching people to use still air planning at medium level if the wind is 'less than about 10 kts'?"

The RAF, it seems... "d. Still-air planning is to be used. When the wind speed is greater than about 10 kts, MDR techniques should be used."
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that on the F214 wind chart, the windspeeds are given in multiples of 5 i.e. 5, 10, 15 etc. The 5 knot wind will not have a direction provided i.e. it will be VRB 05.

Thus if the wind is forecast to be less than 10 Kt i.e. 5 Kt or Calm then it makes sense not to fuss about with trying to guess a direction.

-------

Online planning is great but how many flight briefing rooms in the UK have internet access? - not many. I often find now that we end up going into the terminal to use a WIFI connection or some other public internet facility.

Regards,

DFC
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Old 13th Jun 2006, 09:49
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly agree that there's no point in planning for 'light and variable' winds! But on a 50 mile navex at 90 KIAS which would take (at 90 KTAS) 33.3 minutes, I expect a student on a PPL Skill Test to be able to plan as accurately as reasonably possible - certainly to within 1 minute. Ignoring a 10 kt headwind component on such a leg will give a 4.2 minute error, ignoring a 10kt tailwind component will give a 3.3 minute error. Both of which are outside the in-flight accuracy expected, so anyone doing such lazy still-air planning could fail the navigation section of the PPL Skill Test before even getting airborne........

Yes, there are various standalone planning tools available, but in the future we should have a generally available on-line system as I described. Internet access at clubs should cost the club a mere £15 per month, easily recoverable. And it should be easy enough to prevent all but the most determined geeks from fiddling with the desktop settings.
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Old 13th Jun 2006, 10:21
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I think that every airfield should have free wifi internet.

However, looking at going further afield, the only solution to streamlined flight planning is a laptop with a GSM/GPRS card. The access is not cheap but one doesn't need much data. I spend a few quid per flight on average and that includes filing an ICAO flight plan and faxing the GAR form to all three numbers.

I don't know about supported GPS types for Navbox Pro - have a look at www.navbox.nl

As regards dead reckoning, it works quite well because the aircraft speed is so (normally!) much higher than the wind, and if the visibility is OK then one can see terrain features a few miles away, and one can correct the track accordingly well before reaching the waypoint. I think that human errors are a bigger problem in reality, e.g. messing up the stopwatch, an arithmetic error in the plog, etc.

I also think that training could be much improved when it comes to selection of waypoints. It's no use picking a lake, when there is another similar one 10 miles away. One should look for unusual features, unusual patterns in road/railway intersections, etc. Same with towns and villages, so many look the same.
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Old 13th Jun 2006, 11:39
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Correct - many people choose entirely unsuitable visual fixes and far too many. You shouldn't really need more than 2 or 3 on a 50 mile leg, I would suggest. Even when you've graduated to basic, non-IFR TSO'd GPS use, a good confirmatory visual feature adds a lot of confidence!

I find GSM/GPRS internet access quite slow and unreliable with the original Vodafone Mobile Connect card and only ever use it as a last resort.

We will be upgrading our computer at the Flying Club and intend to add a wi-fi router which will be MAC-address restricted so that any member who provides their MAC address should be able to access the internet using their own laptops.
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Old 13th Jun 2006, 12:01
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It's a very good idea having such a system, we have both wi-fi and a standalone computer with broadband access for flight planning and they make life much easier for students, instructors and PPL's alike.

With the price of a new computer from someone like Dell nowadays, there really is no excuse for not having it, unfortunately most of GA is still in the dark ages about this stuff.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 09:54
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What's needed is a training course on how to do "modern" flight planning!

Nobody does anything remotely resembling that, as far as I know. It would not be hard to put together a syllabus.

It would not go down well with instructors because they would see it as undermining their teaching, and a lot of PPLs drop out immediately, so perhaps getting enough bookings might be the challenge, limited as they would be to PPL holders who go places and can afford a laptop.

I use the Voda PCMCIA card too, a badged Sierra 750 in fact, and it has worked everywhere, including the USA.
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 10:27
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IO540

Your post about anoraks is amusing.. and true I agree that regulatory authorities are very slow to grasp new technology.

One major issue is the use of GPS navigation and approaches although the CAA are running some trials at the moment its very slow in coming...

NDBs are being swithched off stateside and GPS is seen as the way forward

Joe Public is becoming unimpressed with the archaic technology used in aviation - he will be guided precisely up the road to the flying school in his car by GPS and then be taught about whizz wheels and NDBs for navigation - its a quaint old world we live in isnt it?
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 16:21
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The reason I write this kind of stuff is because whenever I speak to somebody outside GA, almost the moment I start to answer some question about why is this done in that way, etc, they tend to start laughing and shaking their head in disbelief.

I am pretty sure that any pilot who is also exposed to similar issues and problems in the outside world will wonder why the hell things are done this way. This basically means anybody in design, technology, engineering, computer hardware or software. If you know something about this stuff, a lot of stuff in GA just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, if flying had not been invented, and somebody invented it now, there is absolutely no way it would be permitted. Way too risky! So we should be grateful
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 17:41
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BEagle, Sir...

so anyone doing such lazy still-air planning could fail the navigation section of the PPL Skill Test before even getting airborne
Yesterday I planned and executed a 1:30/1:45 landaway, over completely unknown terrain (and wildly different to the flatlands of the Fens), and did it all with still air planning and airborne MDR. Just as well, really, as the wind was a good 30 degrees and 10Kts from that forecast by the metman. Furthermore, I did a good twenty minutes of it in IMC, using point-point radio aids methods; needless to say I hadn't planned that beforehand and would've been scuppered had I relied on headings and groundspeeds I'd calculated beforehand on the Dalton.

Needless to say, I was never more than 10 seconds innaccurate with my ETA estimates at any of the turning points, nor more than 1/2nm off track at any point. I put it to you, therefore, that the Dalton/Whizz-wheel is completely unnecessary for the average GA flight... Whilst I can see the reasoning behind campaining for its use, I think it's a little overkill when it's a) complex to understand initially (who else spent a good couple of hours misunderstanding the manual) compared to MDR and b) no more accurate in practice.

-D
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 18:06
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I take it you're not a 20hr student then?

Learn to walk first, then how to run...
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 18:11
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BEagle:
MAC filtering requires the club to maintain the MAC address filter (lots of numbers to type!) whereas you can get similar basic security by hiding your SSID and use WEP128; this saves you from having to maintain a MAC filter (the client would need to set-up their WLAN to work with your WAP).
You need to consider why you want to restrict access to your WAP. Most simple schemes (including MAC filtering, hidden SSID and WEP128) can easily be circumvented with the appropriate skills and tools. If you only want to prevent neighbours from freeloading on your bandwidth then simple schemes will probably be OK; if there are other reasons to keep people out (or you have educated impecunious neighbours) then you need to look at some real security measures. If you don't have neighbours then why have any access control?

HFD
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 18:54
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Thumbs up

ooo-er

Whiz wheel for me ........ and a backup GPS panel mount AND handheld.

Works on the yacht too. Put the handheld in the oven in case of thunderstorms - make sure missus is not baking bread at the time otherwise definately ooo-er.

Faraday cage an' all that don't ya know.

Great thread and great revision for the E6B-1.

Learned a lot from these posts BEagle - please share any other 'quick calcs' that you may have up your wings.

K
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 19:26
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“Travel to airfield by GPS and then revert to Whizz-wheel/NDB.”
That is a good observation RVR800, but against that one should consider the strangeness of human beings and their attachment to old technology, particularly with respect to historical forms of transport. Surely with the invention of internal combustion engines, one would have expected the disappearance of the horse, the sailing boat, and the bicycle. As one travels about the highways and byways, the creeks, inlets and estuaries of these beneficent Isles, one cannot be but struck by the number and variety of equestrian and yachting establishments.
Taking the equestrian first.
It is my firm opinion that a more dangerous and uncomfortable means of transport over the surface of this planet has yet to be devised. Yet this activity (unlike flying or sailing) seems to much excite the interest of the female of the species. In conversation with a member of that sex, in the spirit of intellectual inquiry, I advanced the theory, for her consideration, that the female had a proclivity to having something warm and hairy between it’s legs. This was not well received and occasioned my speedy retirement to avoid a whack from her riding crop.(a stick-like device employed to discipline errant, fractious equines.)
Almost every sheltered bit of coastline is festooned with archaic craft of all sizes, the employment of which causes much expense both in time and money and despite the owners being subject to much uncomfortable exposure to the elements, they persist in the use of such craft, propelled by no more than the wind, a notoriously perfidious force of nature. Why this should be so, when the attachment of a simple engine would fulfill the objective of reliable water-borne transportation is a mystery.
On a hot summer’s day, one occasionally sees a cyclist reaching the top of a long rise, his tortured features, and the sweat on his brow, a testimony to considerable exertion, if not actual physical distress. Why? This question is even more puzzling when it be known that the cyclist is in possession of a perfectly serviceable motor vehicle.
Could it be that similar, unusual phenomena are to be witnessed in the activity of aviation, and thereby explain the continued existence of archaic aircraft with little in the way of navigation or handling aids, other than the pilot’s knowledge and experience?
Has not man reached such a stage of technological development, that getting from A to B is so easy, that in circumstances where time is not of the essence, in order to excite his interest, he reverts to those older modes of transport even if they cause some discomfort? Man is such a perverse creature that he seems to delight in the acquisition of the skill and knowledge required to handle and navigate those archaic aerial conveyances.
Why this should be so, I do not know, neither have I ken of the reasons for the continued use of equines, wind-driven craft or human powered vehicles, particularly when the owners invariably exist in a state of some financial prosperity. But ‘tis so.
Similarly with the interest in Ray Mears’ programmes. People are intrigued by the examples of how man can do so much with so little when thrown back on his own resources, as can happen in emergencies. And so it is with aviation. You don’t need sophisticated equipment to go places. Maurice Kirk got to Sydney, Australia in a Piper Cub. Too many people outside aviation but also many within it, associate it with complexity and sophisticated technology which is not necessary, to simply fly. A fan to provide propulsion and a wing to deflect air downwards and some flight controls and you’re away. One or two instruments aid the pilot but they are not essential for controlled flight.
These basic facts of aviation were rediscovered in the hanglider/microlight revolution where people revisited that very basic aspiration of man, to fly like the birds. In the planes advocated by IO540 you won’t get that. A large part of the time you’ll be sitting there in a climate-controlled environment monitoring dials, gauges and the output of computers, droning along mile after mile through a sterile world of cloud, yammering away in radio speak, only to be able to land at an airport that looks like a penitentiary with food and facilities to match.
Compare that to the microlight world of wind in your hair, the creak of the rigging, the bend and flex of the wings as they respond to every little aircurrent, the booming whoosh of a thermal that propels you upwards at 1000’/min. Land at beautiful grass strips, buried in idyllic corners of England. Make your own tea and coffee and enjoy a homebaked scone or homemade sandwich. No posing required and indeed much frowned upon. Not a gold epaulette or Rayban in sight.
Yes it is a quaint old world and I can’t get enough of it.
Ps. Perhaps the social scene at airfields would be improved by offering stabling and stud facilities.
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