Concern - FI shortage
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Something I've noticed about the amount FI's are paid, if you are open about how much an FI costing, then I have never had any complaints. But if you mix the two costings up ie. have one price for SFH and another price with an FI, then people seem to be bothered.
Why? No idea, but no-one seems to think that an FI isn't worth £25 an hour.
I charge £30/hr for IMC work and Aero's and £22 for "normal" PPL stuff (£25 for night) and we're busier now than we have ever been. I like to think that our customers know that they are getting value for money and when you consider the training and experience we all have, even £30/hr is pretty darn cheap and most punters are smart enough to realise this.
When it comes to pro-active marketing, it is something I'm very keen on, but in all the other schools I've worked at, there has basically been no effort made apart from putting a line in Yellow Pages.
Why? No idea, but no-one seems to think that an FI isn't worth £25 an hour.
I charge £30/hr for IMC work and Aero's and £22 for "normal" PPL stuff (£25 for night) and we're busier now than we have ever been. I like to think that our customers know that they are getting value for money and when you consider the training and experience we all have, even £30/hr is pretty darn cheap and most punters are smart enough to realise this.
When it comes to pro-active marketing, it is something I'm very keen on, but in all the other schools I've worked at, there has basically been no effort made apart from putting a line in Yellow Pages.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 1st Feb 2006 at 21:16.
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Interesting point about being open with the FI's rates. Once you've had the car serviced, got the solictor to write a letter, the accountant to do your tax return and paid the plumber - you'd be a bit concerned to see the well qualified professional who has your life in his hands only on £8 per hour!
ps a correction to my earlier post. The club does send out newsletters - but any incentive to go for additional ratings is by example only - ie someone writing up his aerobatic course as a piece for the newsletter.
ps a correction to my earlier post. The club does send out newsletters - but any incentive to go for additional ratings is by example only - ie someone writing up his aerobatic course as a piece for the newsletter.
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Once you've had the car serviced, got the solictor to write a letter, the accountant to do your tax return and paid the plumber - you'd be a bit concerned to see the well qualified professional who has your life in his hands only on £8 per hour!
Whilst not trying to dumb down the value of instructors or imply that they are not worth paying more, I would just point out that it happens with other occupations too.
I have a Bsc in Agriculture, have 25 years experience and now earn the head popping sum of around £25k per year! Yep I get a nice house with the job and a free airstrip, but then I manage the place! If I break it down into hours, I actually earn less than £5/hr! I'm not alone, look at jobs such as lab technicians ... they need a degree to qualify and I've never seen their jobs advertised for more than about £15k! Like I say, not trying to make out that instructors aren't undervalued ... but I get a bit fed up with the kind of talk that sets them apart as unique in this respect.
SS
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No were not unique, or are we trying to be. I'm sure everyone in a low pay job would like more, it's just that now it seems that may actually happen.
One aside though, I manage a busy school/club and would love to take home £25K/year from it and I certainly don't get free accomodation or a free airstrip.
Having a degree is certainly no guarantee of good pay, especially with so many "mickey mouse" courses being taken today. (Apologies to Mickey!)
One aside though, I manage a busy school/club and would love to take home £25K/year from it and I certainly don't get free accomodation or a free airstrip.
Having a degree is certainly no guarantee of good pay, especially with so many "mickey mouse" courses being taken today. (Apologies to Mickey!)
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I'm sure you are not classing an agricultural degree as Micky Mouse ... but if you are, that would take some justifying. The £25K and house came after many years of earning a lot less and is pretty much the ceiling when it comes to farm earnings. The airstrip is actually just a grazing field that doubles up, but it is a great perk I must admit. Many farm owners, esp some of the hill farmers make no money at all ... except whatever the Mrs brings home from working the till at Tesco's. The point I was making was that there are many well qualified professionals earning less than £8/hr and nobody seems that concerned. Ok, they don't directly have little Jonny's life in their hands, but many have life bearing influences.
I hope instructors do start to earn decent money ... if they do I'd soon jump ship and become one as I'm getting fed up with 2am starts. Oh and before anyone starts pointing out the downside of instructing I'm well aware of them and believe me ... over some of the jobs I'm thinking about, you could never win that aurgument
As for the instructor shortage ... It's about time we dropped the need to do the CPL papers and came up with a specific test including a teaching element. Then allow PPL's with a reasonable amount of experience to teach to PPL level ... and yes, pay them the going rate so that they don't simply undercut those who are trying to scrape a living. Most (though I realise not all) instructors, do move on to higher payed jobs in the airlines, so to a certain extent the poor pay will eventually be justified. However, I'm not trying to say that is how it should be.
SS
I hope instructors do start to earn decent money ... if they do I'd soon jump ship and become one as I'm getting fed up with 2am starts. Oh and before anyone starts pointing out the downside of instructing I'm well aware of them and believe me ... over some of the jobs I'm thinking about, you could never win that aurgument
As for the instructor shortage ... It's about time we dropped the need to do the CPL papers and came up with a specific test including a teaching element. Then allow PPL's with a reasonable amount of experience to teach to PPL level ... and yes, pay them the going rate so that they don't simply undercut those who are trying to scrape a living. Most (though I realise not all) instructors, do move on to higher payed jobs in the airlines, so to a certain extent the poor pay will eventually be justified. However, I'm not trying to say that is how it should be.
SS
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No I certainly don't consider agriculture mickey mouse, I was thinking more along the lines of Media studies.
Hill farming is a tough business, one of my Uncle's is a hill farmer in North Wales and to say it's a hard living is one of the biggest understatements of all time.
Hill farming is a tough business, one of my Uncle's is a hill farmer in North Wales and to say it's a hard living is one of the biggest understatements of all time.
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As far as paying instructors more goes: There is a financial point at which the students will not go beyond. I would love to be paid more per hour, but as soon as it looks likely that a pay rise could be accomodated, up go the landing fees or fuel price, so bang goes the pay rise. We provide hundreds of trial lessons each year and many would love to continue with learning if only flying wasnt so expensive in this country.
With regards to marketing: If anyone knows what the magic formula is, then share it with the rest of us. I agree that most clubs/schools are not proactive enough and are willing to waste money on printed ads that do nothing more than get a few trial lessons. (which make very little money). Most people that learn to fly have made the decision years before they start. How do we encourage others to start and to part with huge sums of money? Only when we can achieve that can we think about paying instructors more.
With regards to marketing: If anyone knows what the magic formula is, then share it with the rest of us. I agree that most clubs/schools are not proactive enough and are willing to waste money on printed ads that do nothing more than get a few trial lessons. (which make very little money). Most people that learn to fly have made the decision years before they start. How do we encourage others to start and to part with huge sums of money? Only when we can achieve that can we think about paying instructors more.
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As a punter at CAC I have the following observations:
(1) One reads from time to time, here and elsewhere, all sorts of horror stories about safety issues, professionalism issues, good business practice issues, with instructors, examiners and clubs.
(2) I have had no such negative experiences at CAC.
(3) OK, from time to time there's an instructor that doesn't like my flying very much, but that's what check rides are for, and this usually happens on occasions when I don't like my flying very much either. The instructors that the club hires deal with such occurences in what seems to me, the paying punter who's being told off for being useless (not something that happens regularly in many other businesses!!!), to be a perfectly reasonable manner.
(4) It's entirely possible that they err too much on the side of caution and refrain from hiring people who could actually do the job. But hiring people (which I've done plenty of in other fields) is hardly an exact science, and an employer might feel that it's preferable to miss good people rather than risk hiring bad ones. When I've accidentally hired the wrong programmer I can sit them in the corner and give them something harmless to do remote from customers until I've persuaded them to leave again, and hope my boss hasn't noticed. You can't do that with flying instructors - every instructor gets to perform in full view of the paying punter.
(1) One reads from time to time, here and elsewhere, all sorts of horror stories about safety issues, professionalism issues, good business practice issues, with instructors, examiners and clubs.
(2) I have had no such negative experiences at CAC.
(3) OK, from time to time there's an instructor that doesn't like my flying very much, but that's what check rides are for, and this usually happens on occasions when I don't like my flying very much either. The instructors that the club hires deal with such occurences in what seems to me, the paying punter who's being told off for being useless (not something that happens regularly in many other businesses!!!), to be a perfectly reasonable manner.
(4) It's entirely possible that they err too much on the side of caution and refrain from hiring people who could actually do the job. But hiring people (which I've done plenty of in other fields) is hardly an exact science, and an employer might feel that it's preferable to miss good people rather than risk hiring bad ones. When I've accidentally hired the wrong programmer I can sit them in the corner and give them something harmless to do remote from customers until I've persuaded them to leave again, and hope my boss hasn't noticed. You can't do that with flying instructors - every instructor gets to perform in full view of the paying punter.
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You are correct in that it isn't easy to tell what someone is like after a short meeting, but it does require some experience of getting it right and sometimes getting it wrong. I have done both and learnt each time to refine what I'm looking for in a prospective FI.
What I didn't particularily like was being put in a totally artificial situation by someone with less than 1/4 of my experience at the time. Each place does things differently and everyone takes time to adapt to it, but it would help if people were told what is expected. Certainly something I tell all of my FI's. i.e How I expect certain lessons to be taught so that we can keep some 'semblence of standardisation.
I have found very fortunately that most people are very competent and that given guidance even someone seemingly a bit ropey can be brought on leaps and bounds, but the key is personality and how they relate to those around them. That I've found to be far more important than trying to trip someone up by pretending to be a "Bloggs." That works OK if the person testing is an FII or FIE, but not if they are still wet behind the ears themselves, since to be honest you haven't the experience to know what to look for.
Now I do, but 4 years ago? Probably not.
What I didn't particularily like was being put in a totally artificial situation by someone with less than 1/4 of my experience at the time. Each place does things differently and everyone takes time to adapt to it, but it would help if people were told what is expected. Certainly something I tell all of my FI's. i.e How I expect certain lessons to be taught so that we can keep some 'semblence of standardisation.
I have found very fortunately that most people are very competent and that given guidance even someone seemingly a bit ropey can be brought on leaps and bounds, but the key is personality and how they relate to those around them. That I've found to be far more important than trying to trip someone up by pretending to be a "Bloggs." That works OK if the person testing is an FII or FIE, but not if they are still wet behind the ears themselves, since to be honest you haven't the experience to know what to look for.
Now I do, but 4 years ago? Probably not.
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Another point of view
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post here but I believe my point is relevent. I'm in my 30s and work for a technical helpdesk. I am reconsidering where I want to be in life and I am giving serious thought to working in the aviation industry.
This is how this thread looks to me:
I've done some research and going from 0 hours (I take it playing X-Plane doesn't count
) to being qualified FI is going to cost me £35-40k. To be airline qualified is going to cost me approx £70k. On top of that I would have to add rental and living costs. Just to pay my course fees I would have to sell my flat.
Flying Instructor:
Pros:
I would enjoy it more (major plus)
Cheaper course
Cons:
Pay (from another thread on this board: 17k if you're lucky)
Course (when taken with living costs) may be too expensive after pay mortgage provider
Airline:
Pros:
More pay on qualifying
Better chance of job?
Cons:
Would enjoy less
Course definitely beyond my means.
The way it's looking, I may be better just doing correspondence courses for the industry I'm in. Within a few years I'd be earning more money and still have my home. However, it's not a path I would want to go on.
Francisco
This is how this thread looks to me:
I've done some research and going from 0 hours (I take it playing X-Plane doesn't count
) to being qualified FI is going to cost me £35-40k. To be airline qualified is going to cost me approx £70k. On top of that I would have to add rental and living costs. Just to pay my course fees I would have to sell my flat.Flying Instructor:
Pros:
I would enjoy it more (major plus)
Cheaper course
Cons:
Pay (from another thread on this board: 17k if you're lucky)
Course (when taken with living costs) may be too expensive after pay mortgage provider
Airline:
Pros:
More pay on qualifying
Better chance of job?
Cons:
Would enjoy less
Course definitely beyond my means.
The way it's looking, I may be better just doing correspondence courses for the industry I'm in. Within a few years I'd be earning more money and still have my home. However, it's not a path I would want to go on.
Francisco
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"Obviously not competent" Sorry SAS but are you clairvoyant ? If they had a CAA FI ticket they must have known something - what about considering the other possibilities ? What if they were just up against a time wasting stuck in the past outfit ? (I have no evidence to suggest that that is the case but am just surprised that SAS seems so definite, would like to know if he sat in on any interviews at CAC??)
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Sas,
Your post on 5 Feb sums things up in my opinion.
Prior to entering aviation,I ran my own business for 15 years,and became tuned to trusting my instinct when recruiting.It astounds me the accuracy of instinct,and the actual content of knowledge and experience improves beyond all recognition with the "right" person,far more important than "tests".
Your post on 5 Feb sums things up in my opinion.
Prior to entering aviation,I ran my own business for 15 years,and became tuned to trusting my instinct when recruiting.It astounds me the accuracy of instinct,and the actual content of knowledge and experience improves beyond all recognition with the "right" person,far more important than "tests".
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SAS - I appear to have got the wreong end of the stick so apologies ! Looks like we are both in agreement, I now see that your last post was most likely a bit of "irony" - that will teach me to reply without putting my brain in gear !
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HiFrank
Not sure where you get the figure of £70k for airline job. If you end up in a company that bonds you rather than asking you to pay upfront for a type rating (the split seems to be even for my friends) then it coasts less than an being an instructor, assuming you still go for the IR. You can get there for liottle more than £40k, training in the UK. Also I would say you would have more chance of a job with an instructor rating. Ironically this is because there is a strong airline job market, so lots of instructors I know are leaving.
Not sure where you get the figure of £70k for airline job. If you end up in a company that bonds you rather than asking you to pay upfront for a type rating (the split seems to be even for my friends) then it coasts less than an being an instructor, assuming you still go for the IR. You can get there for liottle more than £40k, training in the UK. Also I would say you would have more chance of a job with an instructor rating. Ironically this is because there is a strong airline job market, so lots of instructors I know are leaving.
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Explanation and discussion
When I posted my first post the figures I was using came from Stapleford.[1] Since then my preferred one is a local(ish) one to me, Cleveland Flying School which does offer the course for 40k or so.
However, if I go there I won't be selling my flat so will have to work FT (may be able to arrange shifts around course) so finance is still a problem and will only be part-time studying. I've already spoken to the Head of Training and he said that, if training is my goal, then I could halve my costs by leaving out MEP, etc.
I'm thinking about it and have building up a set of questions to ask him (can't keep phoning every day with more questions) but I'm still in two minds. Looked at coldly, I'll be spending £20-40k to get a job which pays approximately what I'm getting now -- that seems silly (especially as I'll need to get myself a loan to pay for the course). Looked at from a job satisfaction point of view (which is the priority) I feel that the job would be a lot more rewarding for me and, despite the potential caveat about heights below, I believe I will love it.
One complication is that I'm afraid of heights. I'm OK in heavy metal jets (loved them as a child, view them as normal now). The only time I've ever been in a light aircraft was as a passenger on a scenic mountain flight and every time I felt the wind move the plane my fear took hold. On the same lines I have mild exercise induced asthma. I should keep my attacks, very rare, under control by taking a couple of puffs on my inhaler a few minutes before flying but would it be enough to make me fail the medical?
Among my other concerns is whether leaving out things like MEP would harm my promotion prospects -- it's not worth trying unless I'm going to have a career! As I would be studying part time, I won't be graduating for 2-5 years and I don't know what the job market then would be.
I'm talking to my building society about arranging finance should I decide to go ahead and I will be looking to book a trial lesson to see how I really feel in the cockpit. I hope to combine that with an appointment with the Head of Training to discuss everything. However, due to the wages in flight instructing it is not simple.
[1] If you look at the PDF file for the commercial course it states that to get qualified it's £28-30k for the basic courses, £26.6k for flight sim training, £6k for FI, £2.3k for MCC, E3-5k in exam fees and the like, etc. It works out about £70k.
However, if I go there I won't be selling my flat so will have to work FT (may be able to arrange shifts around course) so finance is still a problem and will only be part-time studying. I've already spoken to the Head of Training and he said that, if training is my goal, then I could halve my costs by leaving out MEP, etc.
I'm thinking about it and have building up a set of questions to ask him (can't keep phoning every day with more questions) but I'm still in two minds. Looked at coldly, I'll be spending £20-40k to get a job which pays approximately what I'm getting now -- that seems silly (especially as I'll need to get myself a loan to pay for the course). Looked at from a job satisfaction point of view (which is the priority) I feel that the job would be a lot more rewarding for me and, despite the potential caveat about heights below, I believe I will love it.
One complication is that I'm afraid of heights. I'm OK in heavy metal jets (loved them as a child, view them as normal now). The only time I've ever been in a light aircraft was as a passenger on a scenic mountain flight and every time I felt the wind move the plane my fear took hold. On the same lines I have mild exercise induced asthma. I should keep my attacks, very rare, under control by taking a couple of puffs on my inhaler a few minutes before flying but would it be enough to make me fail the medical?
Among my other concerns is whether leaving out things like MEP would harm my promotion prospects -- it's not worth trying unless I'm going to have a career! As I would be studying part time, I won't be graduating for 2-5 years and I don't know what the job market then would be.
I'm talking to my building society about arranging finance should I decide to go ahead and I will be looking to book a trial lesson to see how I really feel in the cockpit. I hope to combine that with an appointment with the Head of Training to discuss everything. However, due to the wages in flight instructing it is not simple.
[1] If you look at the PDF file for the commercial course it states that to get qualified it's £28-30k for the basic courses, £26.6k for flight sim training, £6k for FI, £2.3k for MCC, E3-5k in exam fees and the like, etc. It works out about £70k.
Last edited by HiFranc; 15th Feb 2006 at 00:26.