Training abroad
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
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Training abroad
Guys,
Does anyone have an opinion of the legality of international cross-country navigation with students? Can the flight count as instruction?
My opinion is Yes, based on a vague memory of reading somewhere (probably on PPRuNe) that several Channel Island schools send their students to France for their navigatoin training. Another instructor at my school says No. An initial look through the ANO appears to back up the other instructor, but if anyone has any experience I'd be interested to hear......
FFF
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Does anyone have an opinion of the legality of international cross-country navigation with students? Can the flight count as instruction?
My opinion is Yes, based on a vague memory of reading somewhere (probably on PPRuNe) that several Channel Island schools send their students to France for their navigatoin training. Another instructor at my school says No. An initial look through the ANO appears to back up the other instructor, but if anyone has any experience I'd be interested to hear......
FFF
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When I was instructing in Jersey we did cross countries to France, England and other Channel Islands.
Every time we left EGJJ it was an international flight or we never could have gone anywhere!
Every time we left EGJJ it was an international flight or we never could have gone anywhere!
A couple of years ago I took a stude on a nav-ex to France. I rang the CAA beforehand and got an "OK".
It struck me as odd that this was legit when the airfield we landed at was totally deserted - apparently we could legally have continued training there without fire cover or any check of approach planes, etc.
Funny things, rules.
HFD
It struck me as odd that this was legit when the airfield we landed at was totally deserted - apparently we could legally have continued training there without fire cover or any check of approach planes, etc.
Funny things, rules.
HFD
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Though flying from Jersey to France doesn't involve crossing an international FIR boundary and the CI are not part of the UK either. I guess that they have their own special arrangements.
I agree that what constitutes a licensed field does vary a lot in JAR land. How often do you see markings or numbers on a French grass runway?
I don't have the definitive on this one, but, in principle, I don't see why not.
I agree that what constitutes a licensed field does vary a lot in JAR land. How often do you see markings or numbers on a French grass runway?
I don't have the definitive on this one, but, in principle, I don't see why not.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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CFI - that's what I thought.
HFD - good idea to contact the CAA, they presumably can grant exceptions?
The reason that my colleague thinks it is not allowed is because of Article 21 of the ANO, "Members of Flight Crew = Requirements for License", which states that:
It then goes on to add to that:
I've added the highlighting myself, but this clearly seems to indicate that the exception to the rule requiring a member of the flight crew to hold a license only applies in the UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. In HFD's case, he obtained permission from the CAA. But in CFI's case, was there some kind of written exemption from or extension to this article of the ANO?
FFF
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HFD - good idea to contact the CAA, they presumably can grant exceptions?
The reason that my colleague thinks it is not allowed is because of Article 21 of the ANO, "Members of Flight Crew = Requirements for License", which states that:
(1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order
(2) A person may within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man without being the holder of such a licence:
(b) subject to article 26(3) of this Order, act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:
<It then gives the requirements for solo student flight>
(c) subject to article 26(3) of this Order, act as pilot of an aircraft in respect of which the flight crew required to be carried by or under this Order does not exceed one pilot for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:
<It then gives the requirements for dual flight>
(b) subject to article 26(3) of this Order, act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:
<It then gives the requirements for solo student flight>
(c) subject to article 26(3) of this Order, act as pilot of an aircraft in respect of which the flight crew required to be carried by or under this Order does not exceed one pilot for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:
<It then gives the requirements for dual flight>
FFF
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I wouldn't regard it as "permission". I rang them up, explained the situation and they said verbally that there wasn't a problem.
If I did it now I would make copious notes and ask for confirmation by email - I was even more naive then than I am now .
HFD
If I did it now I would make copious notes and ask for confirmation by email - I was even more naive then than I am now .
HFD
Does anyone have an opinion of the legality of international cross-country navigation with students? Can the flight count as instruction?
Why on earth not? The issue is: does the pilot hold a valid licence; if it is instruction then the instructor does, so there is no issue.
If the student is SOLO he is operating on a medical certificate the acceptance of which is down to the State in which you are flying. The CAA has no power to grant authorities or dispensations in other States!
Why on earth not? The issue is: does the pilot hold a valid licence; if it is instruction then the instructor does, so there is no issue.
If the student is SOLO he is operating on a medical certificate the acceptance of which is down to the State in which you are flying. The CAA has no power to grant authorities or dispensations in other States!
