seminars
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Clown that is so incisive.
Ok should have been:
Was that the course held at Cranfield ran by ETA who are based in Bournemouth?
but hey , the meaning was clear and your post and mine are totally fascile
Any comments about course content and Turnback would be useful?
Ok should have been:
Was that the course held at Cranfield ran by ETA who are based in Bournemouth?
but hey , the meaning was clear and your post and mine are totally fascile
Any comments about course content and Turnback would be useful?
Thread Starter
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09:00 coffee and registration
09:10 welcome and safety brief
09:30 instructional techniques
10:30 coffee break
10:45 instructional techniques
11:15 high risk lecture
12:15 lunch(very nice too)
13:15 low flying
14:15 instrument flying
15:00 tea
15:15 efato
16:00 JAR-FCL
17:00 intro to syndicate work
DAY TWO
09:00 e of c
10:00 syndicate work
11:00 tea
11:15 spinning
12:15 pfl's group discussion
13:00 lunch(again,good)
13:45 syndicate work
15:30 tea
15:45 syndicate work
17:00 HOME
09:10 welcome and safety brief
09:30 instructional techniques
10:30 coffee break
10:45 instructional techniques
11:15 high risk lecture
12:15 lunch(very nice too)
13:15 low flying
14:15 instrument flying
15:00 tea
15:15 efato
16:00 JAR-FCL
17:00 intro to syndicate work
DAY TWO
09:00 e of c
10:00 syndicate work
11:00 tea
11:15 spinning
12:15 pfl's group discussion
13:00 lunch(again,good)
13:45 syndicate work
15:30 tea
15:45 syndicate work
17:00 HOME
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Here's the previous thread on this topic.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=13658
My opinion hasn't changed since then..........
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Flight test for me. Went to Leeds last Nov and learnt (almost) nothing, although was warned at the start that this would be a refresher. Not good value. Seminar wins on guarantee against wx and failure due to lack of ability.
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Interesting comment about some cfs character TELLING us to teach turn backs to ppl students. Met with v.short shrift in Nov 2000. Wonder if it's the same guy?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=13658
My opinion hasn't changed since then..........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight test for me. Went to Leeds last Nov and learnt (almost) nothing, although was warned at the start that this would be a refresher. Not good value. Seminar wins on guarantee against wx and failure due to lack of ability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting comment about some cfs character TELLING us to teach turn backs to ppl students. Met with v.short shrift in Nov 2000. Wonder if it's the same guy?
Jet Blast Rat
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Sorry Vet, was not aware that they did roving courses. I am local, and know them, so only looked at their courses here!
Turnback: only when established crosswind. Killed 2 in Bournemouth last year, with one still in hospital now I believe.
Turnback: only when established crosswind. Killed 2 in Bournemouth last year, with one still in hospital now I believe.
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Following your responses:
Firstly, Classic regarding your comments regarding the turnback, I stand corrected. However my turnback concern is that and inexperienced pilot (low how part time FIR) may come a cropper soon. Sure the turnback is not impossible, just potentially hazardous. The instructor at the seminar when questioned on the height loss in a Bulldog T1 clearly hadn't read his flight manual!
There is a theorectical height loss, try it at 3000 ft, but when your closing towards the ground, it's very different.
Secondly, mad-jock I found your comments interesting regarding the katana, I haven't flown the type, its pity you were not at the seminar, although you would have been told to shut, up, because the instructor concerned wasn't interested in any other views!
Deltic
Firstly, Classic regarding your comments regarding the turnback, I stand corrected. However my turnback concern is that and inexperienced pilot (low how part time FIR) may come a cropper soon. Sure the turnback is not impossible, just potentially hazardous. The instructor at the seminar when questioned on the height loss in a Bulldog T1 clearly hadn't read his flight manual!
There is a theorectical height loss, try it at 3000 ft, but when your closing towards the ground, it's very different.
Secondly, mad-jock I found your comments interesting regarding the katana, I haven't flown the type, its pity you were not at the seminar, although you would have been told to shut, up, because the instructor concerned wasn't interested in any other views!
Deltic
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No worries , Clowns , I was having a bad day( again).
Keen to hear views re 'turn back'.
Just an attempt to canvas poeples view.
Imagine a November evening , ( tide is in ), departing Runway 25 wind 260/15 at Blackpool.
A C172 engine fails at 500ft on climb out, 4 people on board.
What would people opt for :-
1) standard glide land straight ahead possibly landing in water
2) Turn back to airport ( Fire crews available)
Any thoughts on this would be good .
Back to the seminar , I believe the guy discussing turn back , would not tell anyone to shut up , but was keen to develop a discussion.
I am low hour part time FI(r) so are looking for help.
Keen to hear views re 'turn back'.
Just an attempt to canvas poeples view.
Imagine a November evening , ( tide is in ), departing Runway 25 wind 260/15 at Blackpool.
A C172 engine fails at 500ft on climb out, 4 people on board.
What would people opt for :-
1) standard glide land straight ahead possibly landing in water
2) Turn back to airport ( Fire crews available)
Any thoughts on this would be good .
Back to the seminar , I believe the guy discussing turn back , would not tell anyone to shut up , but was keen to develop a discussion.
I am low hour part time FI(r) so are looking for help.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Vetflyer,
The general rule is always to pick a field within 30 degrees of the nose. But you asked specifically about Blackpool.
The reasons for not attempting a turn-back have already been stated. But one very important point is that made by Deltic - under pressure to make it to the runway, the actual height loss may well be far more than the theoretical height loss - and it is also when under pressure that people are likely to loose track of their attitude and stall/spin.
But there is an exception to every rule. At Blackpool, I teach my students that runways 25 and 28 are exceptions to the rule. In either case, if you are high enough to clear Pontins, a gentle turn to the left to land on the beach at St Annes is usually the best course of action. The justification for this is that
- a) a landing on the beach (assuming there aren't too many people on it, which there usually aren't between Pontins and St Annes Pier) is better than ditching in the water
- b) although the turn of around 90 degrees or more that is necessary is far more than the normal maximum of 30 degrees, the target (the beach) is very large, and also very wide if the tide is out. Therefore, there will be very little pressure on the pilot to make the beach, as compared to the pressure involved in a turn-back to the airfield. Even a low-hours student pilot, so long as he gets the attitude and speed correct, will be able to make a gentle turn through 90 degrees and then land on the beach ahead without risking a stall/spin.
The only time I would differ from this is with a northerly or northwesterly wind, with the tide out, and when there are relatively few sunbathers around, in which case a right turn to the beach near South Pier, into wind, is better than the downwind landing that would result in heading for the beach at St Annes. I would never suggest that a student should try to turn back, and I would never attempt it myself either.
Any views from other Blackpool pilots welcome.
FFF
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The general rule is always to pick a field within 30 degrees of the nose. But you asked specifically about Blackpool.
The reasons for not attempting a turn-back have already been stated. But one very important point is that made by Deltic - under pressure to make it to the runway, the actual height loss may well be far more than the theoretical height loss - and it is also when under pressure that people are likely to loose track of their attitude and stall/spin.
But there is an exception to every rule. At Blackpool, I teach my students that runways 25 and 28 are exceptions to the rule. In either case, if you are high enough to clear Pontins, a gentle turn to the left to land on the beach at St Annes is usually the best course of action. The justification for this is that
- a) a landing on the beach (assuming there aren't too many people on it, which there usually aren't between Pontins and St Annes Pier) is better than ditching in the water
- b) although the turn of around 90 degrees or more that is necessary is far more than the normal maximum of 30 degrees, the target (the beach) is very large, and also very wide if the tide is out. Therefore, there will be very little pressure on the pilot to make the beach, as compared to the pressure involved in a turn-back to the airfield. Even a low-hours student pilot, so long as he gets the attitude and speed correct, will be able to make a gentle turn through 90 degrees and then land on the beach ahead without risking a stall/spin.
The only time I would differ from this is with a northerly or northwesterly wind, with the tide out, and when there are relatively few sunbathers around, in which case a right turn to the beach near South Pier, into wind, is better than the downwind landing that would result in heading for the beach at St Annes. I would never suggest that a student should try to turn back, and I would never attempt it myself either.
Any views from other Blackpool pilots welcome.
FFF
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Thanks FFF
Just wondering if tide is in , therefore no beach and it is dark then ( only after proper trg and practice) is a turnback to airfield by the FI is a better option than swimming ! But not below say 600ft.
Balance of risks ?
Also if summer and beach is full of families what are your thoughts of landing on beach and running over bystanders.
Just wondering if tide is in , therefore no beach and it is dark then ( only after proper trg and practice) is a turnback to airfield by the FI is a better option than swimming ! But not below say 600ft.
Balance of risks ?
Also if summer and beach is full of families what are your thoughts of landing on beach and running over bystanders.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Vet,
First of all, I think it's important to stress that I can only give very general guidance/advice, because every case is different. As a pilot gets more and more experience, he starts looking for, and noticing, more and more options. The right turn to land alongside South Pier, for example, was something which I didn't realise was an option until fairly recently, so it's entirely possible there are other options than those which I've noticed.
I don't believe that the tide at St Annes ever comes in completely, there is always a bit of beach. And even in summer, there is a large stretch of beach which is generally empty. (If you drive down Clifton Drive, once past Pontins, there are no houses or other buildings for quite some distance, and therefore no one on the beach.....)
Having said that, if the beach really isn't an option for the reasons you've given, I'd still go for ditching alongside the beach. If it's a busy beach, someone will see you ditching and help won't be too far away - and if you get as close as you safely can to the sunbathers/swimmers, the sea will quite likely be shallow enough to wade in, or calm enough to swim in (otherwise people wouldn't be sun-bathing and swimming there).
By 600', you will normally have turned crosswind (in a normal circuit), and your options are completely different. On a right-hand crosswind from runway 28/25/31, your options are very very few. I think that swimming in from South Pier will often be your only realistic choice. But with a bit of extra height, from runway 25/28, a landing on runway 13 might be possible..... but with the approach over the houses, I'm not sure I'd try it unless I had quite a bit of height. I certainly wouldn't try it from 600' on a straight-out departure - others with more experience might, but not me, and I wouldn't suggest it to my students.
FFF
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First of all, I think it's important to stress that I can only give very general guidance/advice, because every case is different. As a pilot gets more and more experience, he starts looking for, and noticing, more and more options. The right turn to land alongside South Pier, for example, was something which I didn't realise was an option until fairly recently, so it's entirely possible there are other options than those which I've noticed.
I don't believe that the tide at St Annes ever comes in completely, there is always a bit of beach. And even in summer, there is a large stretch of beach which is generally empty. (If you drive down Clifton Drive, once past Pontins, there are no houses or other buildings for quite some distance, and therefore no one on the beach.....)
Having said that, if the beach really isn't an option for the reasons you've given, I'd still go for ditching alongside the beach. If it's a busy beach, someone will see you ditching and help won't be too far away - and if you get as close as you safely can to the sunbathers/swimmers, the sea will quite likely be shallow enough to wade in, or calm enough to swim in (otherwise people wouldn't be sun-bathing and swimming there).
By 600', you will normally have turned crosswind (in a normal circuit), and your options are completely different. On a right-hand crosswind from runway 28/25/31, your options are very very few. I think that swimming in from South Pier will often be your only realistic choice. But with a bit of extra height, from runway 25/28, a landing on runway 13 might be possible..... but with the approach over the houses, I'm not sure I'd try it unless I had quite a bit of height. I certainly wouldn't try it from 600' on a straight-out departure - others with more experience might, but not me, and I wouldn't suggest it to my students.
FFF
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