Licence validity
Thread Starter
Licence validity
I need help......................
I am trying to get a few more hours in and some dual to complete the experience requirement to retain my PPL, however,
my club states that ALL PPL licences are now valid for 5 years only, yet mine, issued in Aug 1999, clearly states that it is valid for the holders lifetime unless revoked etc.
Did this change when JAA came in, despite mine being a UK CAA licence? ie do I have grandfather rights? If not shouldn't they have told me?
I have an aircraft rating/Certificate of test/check or experience valid until Aug 05 but that would be 6 years from licence issue so maybe I have not had a valid licence since August 2004!
Do I have to re-apply for a licence sending £59 and wait for that to return before I can complete my next cert of experience?
Or maybe I have totally blown it and need a skill test etc etc ?
I am trying to get a few more hours in and some dual to complete the experience requirement to retain my PPL, however,
my club states that ALL PPL licences are now valid for 5 years only, yet mine, issued in Aug 1999, clearly states that it is valid for the holders lifetime unless revoked etc.
Did this change when JAA came in, despite mine being a UK CAA licence? ie do I have grandfather rights? If not shouldn't they have told me?
I have an aircraft rating/Certificate of test/check or experience valid until Aug 05 but that would be 6 years from licence issue so maybe I have not had a valid licence since August 2004!
Do I have to re-apply for a licence sending £59 and wait for that to return before I can complete my next cert of experience?
Or maybe I have totally blown it and need a skill test etc etc ?
Last edited by Aeronut; 14th Jun 2005 at 14:58.
Your Club is talking complete and utter nonsense!
Your PPL is a UK 'lifetime' PPL. With a current, valid Certificate of Experience, you need to do absolutely nothing right now. Just revalidate the Rating before it expires in August 2005. To do that, you either need to have flown 12 hours since Aug 04 (6 as PIC and 1 with an instructor, plus 12 t/os and landings) - or else fly a proficiency check with an Examiner between now and the expiry date of the Rating.
No money to send to the CAA unless your Rating has lapsed by more than 5 years. So, in your case, that wouldn't be until after August 2010!
Do NOT be persuaded to change your UK PPL(A) for a JAA PPL(A) - there is absolutely no need to do so whatsoever.
If your Club persists in talking such arrant horse-poo, let me know and I will arrange for a briefing from the CAA to come their way!
Your PPL is a UK 'lifetime' PPL. With a current, valid Certificate of Experience, you need to do absolutely nothing right now. Just revalidate the Rating before it expires in August 2005. To do that, you either need to have flown 12 hours since Aug 04 (6 as PIC and 1 with an instructor, plus 12 t/os and landings) - or else fly a proficiency check with an Examiner between now and the expiry date of the Rating.
No money to send to the CAA unless your Rating has lapsed by more than 5 years. So, in your case, that wouldn't be until after August 2010!
Do NOT be persuaded to change your UK PPL(A) for a JAA PPL(A) - there is absolutely no need to do so whatsoever.
If your Club persists in talking such arrant horse-poo, let me know and I will arrange for a briefing from the CAA to come their way!
Thread Starter
It's not true what they say about you Beagle!
Many thanks.
Even though I have it in black and white on my licence I was even starting to doubt it myself, assuming the worst of CAA/JAA.
I'm off flying
Many thanks.
Even though I have it in black and white on my licence I was even starting to doubt it myself, assuming the worst of CAA/JAA.
I'm off flying
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK & JAA
Just to add a possibly useful note.
You may if there should be a need in the future obtain a JAA PPL Licence and STILL retain you UK PPL in tandem.
As has been said DO NOT give up your UK PPL!!
You may if there should be a need in the future obtain a JAA PPL Licence and STILL retain you UK PPL in tandem.
As has been said DO NOT give up your UK PPL!!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that for a JAA PPL, 12 hours are required in the 2nd year of which 6 is PIC and 1 hour with an instructor (?)
But those 12 hours, are they related to 12 hours in the 2nd year since the date the licence was issued or 12 hours since the test, or 12 hours since the application for the licence. I've had a look through LASORS but with 608 pages of it I could do with a little directing.
Thanks,
Spikeee
But those 12 hours, are they related to 12 hours in the 2nd year since the date the licence was issued or 12 hours since the test, or 12 hours since the application for the licence. I've had a look through LASORS but with 608 pages of it I could do with a little directing.
Thanks,
Spikeee
Take a look at the Form FCL 150CJAR 'Ratings - Certificate of Revalidation' in your licence. It states the date until which the Rating is 'Valid Until'. The second 12 month period starts 12 months before this date.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From LASORS Section A6
Hope it helps
Section F of LASORS deals with revalidation. Think I may need to get out more
Flight crew licences issued in accordance with JAR–FCL will conform to JAR-FCL specifications and may only be replaced with a JAR-FCL licence. Licences issued in accordance with UK National arrangements will, where applicable, remain valid until their date of expiry and may be renewed after this date. The UK National Licence will continue to be available to those who have previously held the licence. There is no necessity for UK national licence holders to convert to a JAR-FCL equivalent licence unless they wish to do so. The only circumstance in which all holders of a UK national licence would need to obtain a JAR-FCL licence would be if the EU mandated such a move. Until such time as EC Directive 91/670/EEC is withdrawn, a UK National licence can still be validated in other EU States. Holders of UK national licences do not need to surrender their licence upon issuance of a JAR-FCL
equivalent.
equivalent.
Section F of LASORS deals with revalidation. Think I may need to get out more
Last edited by Engineer; 18th Jun 2005 at 13:31.
Licence Validity
Poor old Aeronut……it looks as though you (like me) have been confused/misled by the advice given by well meaning people!.
Like Aeronut I am the proud owner of a hard earned UK PPL with SEP and TMG ratings so when I was contemplating retiring to France I asked whether I needed the extra aggravation of converting my licence to JAA to be able to continue to fly in France. “No worries”, I was told, “Your UK licence will be accepted.”
Needless to say I checked with the CAA and was informed that I could only fly “G” reg aircraft with my UK PPL!
On arrival in France I duly visited my local flying club who looked at my licence, sent details to the DGAC and I was informed that as long as I was a member of the Féderation Française Aéronautique and passed a check ride with their instructor I could fly “F” reg aircraft. All was well until my medical was about to expire. I was not planning on returning to the UK for some time so asked about the validity of a French JAR Class 2. Again “No worries” (or equivalent in French). “Of course we will accept a Class 2 medical issued by a French AME and you will be able to continue to fly here in France.”
So off to visit the French AME and obtain a JAR Class 2 medical certificate, which I duly copied and sent off to CAA asking for reassurance as to its validity. No reply from CAA…..
Unfortunately it was getting close to the end of my second year for revalidation of my licence and I was struggling against the weather to get my 12 hours in before my licence expired, which it did by 2 hours! “No worry.” My French instructor told me. “You are booked for a Skills Test next week, then you will be OK”
I duly took my JAR Skills Test (in French) and obtained a pass. I was then advised by my examiner to contact the DGAC in France who informed me that they could not renew my UK PPL in France……..so contact was made with CAA who expressed concern about the validity of a French JAR Class 2 medical certificate and the validity of a French JAR Skills Test, and that surely the best thing was to complete the forms (and send lots of money) to convert my UK PPL to a JAR PPL to avoid this hassle in future. (BEagle you state “Do NOT be persuaded to change your UK PPL(A) for a JAA PPL(A) - there is absolutely no need to do so whatsoever”) (Engineer you state “Until such time as EC Directive 91/670/EEC is withdrawn, a UK National licence can still be validated in other EU States”)
Was I conned by the CAA, did I really need to convert to a JAR PPL?
Well my new JAR licence duly arrived but with only the SEP rating revalidated but not the TMG. “Oh yes,” was the response from CAA, “you would have revalidated both the SEP and TMG if you had revalidated your licence by experience (12 hours in the second year). But you revalidated by a Skills Test and that was only SEP. If you wish to revalidate the TMG you need to do another TMG Skills Test!” My French Class 2 medical certificate was also converted to a UK JAA Class 2 so it seems that we have had some degree of success.
Now it appears that the CAA are happy that I am now flying in accordance with their rules. At least until my medical certificate expires! I have been informed by CAA that they will in future no longer able to convert my French medical certificate to a UK JAA Class 2……..No advice or suggestions forthcoming from CAA……..
As you can see, dear Reader (if you have got this far). All I want to do is fly, albeit in France. Everybody has been well intentioned but I have been going round in circles. And no, dear Engineer, I have not been able to read the 608 pages of LASORS or attempt to find the French equivalent (probably 1000 pages!)
Could I have kept flying in France on my UK PPL? Would a UK approved AME and UK Skills Test been enough (If I could have got back to UK)? Should I have persevered with the French DGAC to renew my licence as Engineer advised? How do I renew my medical for my JAA PPL or for that matter my UK PPL whilst living in France?
Any help, or advice is greatly appreciated.
Frelon
PS: Aeronut. Try to ensure that you do enough hours in your second year so that you renew by experience and not have to resort to a Skills Test.
Like Aeronut I am the proud owner of a hard earned UK PPL with SEP and TMG ratings so when I was contemplating retiring to France I asked whether I needed the extra aggravation of converting my licence to JAA to be able to continue to fly in France. “No worries”, I was told, “Your UK licence will be accepted.”
Needless to say I checked with the CAA and was informed that I could only fly “G” reg aircraft with my UK PPL!
On arrival in France I duly visited my local flying club who looked at my licence, sent details to the DGAC and I was informed that as long as I was a member of the Féderation Française Aéronautique and passed a check ride with their instructor I could fly “F” reg aircraft. All was well until my medical was about to expire. I was not planning on returning to the UK for some time so asked about the validity of a French JAR Class 2. Again “No worries” (or equivalent in French). “Of course we will accept a Class 2 medical issued by a French AME and you will be able to continue to fly here in France.”
So off to visit the French AME and obtain a JAR Class 2 medical certificate, which I duly copied and sent off to CAA asking for reassurance as to its validity. No reply from CAA…..
Unfortunately it was getting close to the end of my second year for revalidation of my licence and I was struggling against the weather to get my 12 hours in before my licence expired, which it did by 2 hours! “No worry.” My French instructor told me. “You are booked for a Skills Test next week, then you will be OK”
I duly took my JAR Skills Test (in French) and obtained a pass. I was then advised by my examiner to contact the DGAC in France who informed me that they could not renew my UK PPL in France……..so contact was made with CAA who expressed concern about the validity of a French JAR Class 2 medical certificate and the validity of a French JAR Skills Test, and that surely the best thing was to complete the forms (and send lots of money) to convert my UK PPL to a JAR PPL to avoid this hassle in future. (BEagle you state “Do NOT be persuaded to change your UK PPL(A) for a JAA PPL(A) - there is absolutely no need to do so whatsoever”) (Engineer you state “Until such time as EC Directive 91/670/EEC is withdrawn, a UK National licence can still be validated in other EU States”)
Was I conned by the CAA, did I really need to convert to a JAR PPL?
Well my new JAR licence duly arrived but with only the SEP rating revalidated but not the TMG. “Oh yes,” was the response from CAA, “you would have revalidated both the SEP and TMG if you had revalidated your licence by experience (12 hours in the second year). But you revalidated by a Skills Test and that was only SEP. If you wish to revalidate the TMG you need to do another TMG Skills Test!” My French Class 2 medical certificate was also converted to a UK JAA Class 2 so it seems that we have had some degree of success.
Now it appears that the CAA are happy that I am now flying in accordance with their rules. At least until my medical certificate expires! I have been informed by CAA that they will in future no longer able to convert my French medical certificate to a UK JAA Class 2……..No advice or suggestions forthcoming from CAA……..
As you can see, dear Reader (if you have got this far). All I want to do is fly, albeit in France. Everybody has been well intentioned but I have been going round in circles. And no, dear Engineer, I have not been able to read the 608 pages of LASORS or attempt to find the French equivalent (probably 1000 pages!)
Could I have kept flying in France on my UK PPL? Would a UK approved AME and UK Skills Test been enough (If I could have got back to UK)? Should I have persevered with the French DGAC to renew my licence as Engineer advised? How do I renew my medical for my JAA PPL or for that matter my UK PPL whilst living in France?
Any help, or advice is greatly appreciated.
Frelon
PS: Aeronut. Try to ensure that you do enough hours in your second year so that you renew by experience and not have to resort to a Skills Test.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frelon LASORS Section C and F have about one tenth of the total pages in LASORS. It is a bit like using a dictionary you use only the parts that are relevant to what you want.
But like anything in the end the authority you are dealing with have the final say. However may be if you have the necessary information the rules are based on it may enable one to put forward their case better.
Can one assume that if you have studied hard to obtain your licence, studying a few relevant pages must come easy!
Just for the record this is not advice
But like anything in the end the authority you are dealing with have the final say. However may be if you have the necessary information the rules are based on it may enable one to put forward their case better.
Can one assume that if you have studied hard to obtain your licence, studying a few relevant pages must come easy!
Just for the record this is not advice
Thread Starter
It gets worse!
It has been noticed that my last Cert of Experience was signed 10 days after my last expiry date. Despite having accomplished the required hours in time I am now told that my licence is no longer valid and has not been valid since then.
So maybe I have not had a valid licence for nearly 2 years after all.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagghh
Struggling to find enthusiasm now, mustn't let European bureaucrats deny me!
It has been noticed that my last Cert of Experience was signed 10 days after my last expiry date. Despite having accomplished the required hours in time I am now told that my licence is no longer valid and has not been valid since then.
So maybe I have not had a valid licence for nearly 2 years after all.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagghh
Struggling to find enthusiasm now, mustn't let European bureaucrats deny me!
Last edited by Aeronut; 7th Jul 2005 at 07:23.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK v JAA
Aeronut
You had no need to give up your UK PPL for a JAA PPL. You may hold both. Ask for your UK PPL back!
I don't understand why the CAA do not accept the french JAR Class 2 medical. The point of JAA was to set a common standard! They seem to accept the flying examination by a French JAA Flight Examiner why not the medical examination by a JAA French Medical Examiner. Challenge this issue you may well win the arguement.
However why not consider the transfer of your now gained UK issued JAA licence to France and then all administration of your licence will take place with the French authorities. Worth looking into at any rate.
You had no need to give up your UK PPL for a JAA PPL. You may hold both. Ask for your UK PPL back!
I don't understand why the CAA do not accept the french JAR Class 2 medical. The point of JAA was to set a common standard! They seem to accept the flying examination by a French JAA Flight Examiner why not the medical examination by a JAA French Medical Examiner. Challenge this issue you may well win the arguement.
However why not consider the transfer of your now gained UK issued JAA licence to France and then all administration of your licence will take place with the French authorities. Worth looking into at any rate.
Licence Validity
Hi Homeguard
Actually I did ask for my UK PPL back but it was not updated with my Certificate of Validation or Medical Certificate. However the shiny new JAA PPL contains my Certificate of Validation and now my Class 2 medical certificate.
Having been coerced to delve into LASORS by Engineer I see that if my normal residency is in another JAA state I may apply to change the state of licence issue so the sensible approach is to approach the French authorities and go through this process. This will mean that I can benefit from a French Medical Examiner fee of €30, and, if necessary in the future, a free Skills Test!!
OK, having then transferred my JAA PPL to France will my UK PPL be valid? I guess only if the Certificate of Validation is up to date (should I have asked CAA for two C of Vs?) and the medical certificate is current.
Next question, why would I need both? Surely the French JAA PPL would cover me for flying in the UK?
Regarding the French medical…yes, that’s what I thought!! I did challenge the CAA letter regarding not being able to convert my French Class 2 to a UK Class 2 and have just heard that this has recently changed!! The reason I have been given is that the French MEs have two rubber stamps, one for National Medicals and the other for JAA Medicals. BUT the Medical Certificate I was given clearly stated that it was a Classe 2 certificate!
Hey ho, on to the next challenge.
Oh dear Aeronut, sounds like one of those dreaded Skills Test for you
. Don’t worry they are not as bad as they seem . Try one in French!
Frelon
Actually I did ask for my UK PPL back but it was not updated with my Certificate of Validation or Medical Certificate. However the shiny new JAA PPL contains my Certificate of Validation and now my Class 2 medical certificate.
Having been coerced to delve into LASORS by Engineer I see that if my normal residency is in another JAA state I may apply to change the state of licence issue so the sensible approach is to approach the French authorities and go through this process. This will mean that I can benefit from a French Medical Examiner fee of €30, and, if necessary in the future, a free Skills Test!!
OK, having then transferred my JAA PPL to France will my UK PPL be valid? I guess only if the Certificate of Validation is up to date (should I have asked CAA for two C of Vs?) and the medical certificate is current.
Next question, why would I need both? Surely the French JAA PPL would cover me for flying in the UK?
Regarding the French medical…yes, that’s what I thought!! I did challenge the CAA letter regarding not being able to convert my French Class 2 to a UK Class 2 and have just heard that this has recently changed!! The reason I have been given is that the French MEs have two rubber stamps, one for National Medicals and the other for JAA Medicals. BUT the Medical Certificate I was given clearly stated that it was a Classe 2 certificate!
Hey ho, on to the next challenge.
Oh dear Aeronut, sounds like one of those dreaded Skills Test for you
. Don’t worry they are not as bad as they seem . Try one in French!Frelon
Licence Validity
Dear Engineer
I thought of it as nothing other than shepherding - just could not find the right word without offending you
We all need a little nudge in the right direction at times. Thanks for your help.
My problem is now sorted. We now need to get Aeronut off the ground.
Frelon
I thought of it as nothing other than shepherding - just could not find the right word without offending you
We all need a little nudge in the right direction at times. Thanks for your help.
My problem is now sorted. We now need to get Aeronut off the ground.
Frelon
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK v JAA
To keep the UK PPL costs you nothing and is for LIFE. The JAA Licence requires renewing every 10 years so a FEE . What will be the outcome of that in the future, who knows!
A UK PPL is revalidated by the same process as the JAA PPL and the requirements are the same. It therefore could be reasonably argued that by maintaining your JAA PPL you are maintaining the UK PPL. The Medical to validate the UK PPL is also a JAA Class 2. UK Flight Examiners are in fact JAA Examiners and therefore it is argueable that a revalidation by a JAA Examiner should also revalidate the UK PPL. The administration action following a Revalidation/Renewal of a UK PPL or a JAA PPL is undertaken using the same form.
What is true in all this is that the CAA responce is probably quite genuine but with the ever changing process to JAA and now to EASA even the experts at the CAA are uncertain. Keep the challenge going.
A UK PPL is revalidated by the same process as the JAA PPL and the requirements are the same. It therefore could be reasonably argued that by maintaining your JAA PPL you are maintaining the UK PPL. The Medical to validate the UK PPL is also a JAA Class 2. UK Flight Examiners are in fact JAA Examiners and therefore it is argueable that a revalidation by a JAA Examiner should also revalidate the UK PPL. The administration action following a Revalidation/Renewal of a UK PPL or a JAA PPL is undertaken using the same form.
What is true in all this is that the CAA responce is probably quite genuine but with the ever changing process to JAA and now to EASA even the experts at the CAA are uncertain. Keep the challenge going.
For heaven's sake, chaps, do READ LASORS!!
A JAA licence is valid for 5 years.
A SEP Class Rating can only be revalidated by experience BEFORE the expiry date; even if you have 1000 hours in the second 12 month period, if you don't get your Rating re-validated before the expiry date, then you have to RENEW it by LST.
If the FCL150CJAR in your licence was signed by someone who hadn't checked the expiry date, he/she acted unprofessionally and you should challenge him/her on this - ALL Examiners should know the score.
Just do a LST/SPA with a PPL Examiner and your Rating should be renewed without further formality.
A JAA licence is valid for 5 years.
A SEP Class Rating can only be revalidated by experience BEFORE the expiry date; even if you have 1000 hours in the second 12 month period, if you don't get your Rating re-validated before the expiry date, then you have to RENEW it by LST.
If the FCL150CJAR in your licence was signed by someone who hadn't checked the expiry date, he/she acted unprofessionally and you should challenge him/her on this - ALL Examiners should know the score.
Just do a LST/SPA with a PPL Examiner and your Rating should be renewed without further formality.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OOPS'S
Sorry BEAgle
Of course it's 5 years.
However you may also 'Revalidate' by flight Test' prior to expiry of the Validation period. Renewal is the action that takes place after expiry.
Of course it's 5 years.
However you may also 'Revalidate' by flight Test' prior to expiry of the Validation period. Renewal is the action that takes place after expiry.