Whither the flying instructor?
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quote "crap paying job flying a shed or 748" from www.
i wonder which company this was aimed at????
Those of us at the bottom end of commercial flying may earn slightly more than instructors but I found instrucing much more fun and rewarding than hanging about in airport terminals waiting for a postioning flight home afer being awake for 28 hours.
If it was slightly better paid, I would go back to instructing and let someone younger do my job.
i wonder which company this was aimed at????
Those of us at the bottom end of commercial flying may earn slightly more than instructors but I found instrucing much more fun and rewarding than hanging about in airport terminals waiting for a postioning flight home afer being awake for 28 hours.
If it was slightly better paid, I would go back to instructing and let someone younger do my job.
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Can I get some advice please.
You come out of flight school with low hours and want to fly. You dont get a flying role due to being low hours. I want to get an instructor rating (whatever the weather), but this appears harmful to a future within a flying role outside of instruction (having read this thread.)
Everyone was once taught by an instructor. They helped them realise their dream to get to where they are today.
Never forget that.
So why do pilot descision makers (once taught by an instructor) think things like its the same hour 500 times? To be honest, flying a company FMC route from Heathrow to Nice is the same 1.5 hours many many times over during a career, (unless your'e on the lookout because you think that the Captain is likely to put you into a spin when practising stalls on the way down to Nice.)
I have chosed to work in a specialist field and that is what I want to do.
I refuse to work elsewhere and fly the odd hour at the weekend. That is what I used to do...
What should I do as a low hour bod at this cross roads?
Craggs
You come out of flight school with low hours and want to fly. You dont get a flying role due to being low hours. I want to get an instructor rating (whatever the weather), but this appears harmful to a future within a flying role outside of instruction (having read this thread.)
Everyone was once taught by an instructor. They helped them realise their dream to get to where they are today.
Never forget that.
So why do pilot descision makers (once taught by an instructor) think things like its the same hour 500 times? To be honest, flying a company FMC route from Heathrow to Nice is the same 1.5 hours many many times over during a career, (unless your'e on the lookout because you think that the Captain is likely to put you into a spin when practising stalls on the way down to Nice.)
I have chosed to work in a specialist field and that is what I want to do.
I refuse to work elsewhere and fly the odd hour at the weekend. That is what I used to do...
What should I do as a low hour bod at this cross roads?
Craggs
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it's a small world...
haven't seen the aforementioned article yet, but already know who the individual is. not a way to make friends and influence people.
one thing's for sure, instructional hours are a damn sight more useful than doing nothing at all, when you go for that interview. also, they are P1 hours. and they were very useful in me getting my first airline job. so, each case to it's individual merits.
HH
one thing's for sure, instructional hours are a damn sight more useful than doing nothing at all, when you go for that interview. also, they are P1 hours. and they were very useful in me getting my first airline job. so, each case to it's individual merits.
HH
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Its not just about aircraft handling. Its also about being in command.
Being an instructor means you have to make 'command decisions' early in your career...and expose yourself to jeopardy. Someone who has gone through a CPL/IR (especially if on an integrated course) will not make their first genuine command decision until in the left hand seat of an airliner.
As an instructor you make flight safety decisions on a daily basis...and there is often no person to turn to to see if that decision was right/sensible. Decision making skills get honed (with immediate feedback if your decision making is poor). Just the kind of thing to have when you're faced with a problem that the SOPs cannot guide on.
I have 1000 hours pilot in command and have yet to get an airline interview (let alone a job). These hours have been 'in command'...i.e. if it turns to sh1t in any way then it is my role to get it back.
As the axiom goes. A superior pilot does not need to use his superior handling skills, as his superior judgement and decision making skills help him to avoid the bad situation in the first place.
Flying Instruction allows an instructor to make the mistakes (at slow speeds) that allows an instructor to develop the judgement to stop it happening again when it may be for real..in something faster and heavier. I acknowledge that FIs may pick up some bad habits and (lets be honest) arrogance...but an apprenticeship as an FI has worked for the last 80 years of aviation. Why the sudden change?
Being an instructor means you have to make 'command decisions' early in your career...and expose yourself to jeopardy. Someone who has gone through a CPL/IR (especially if on an integrated course) will not make their first genuine command decision until in the left hand seat of an airliner.
As an instructor you make flight safety decisions on a daily basis...and there is often no person to turn to to see if that decision was right/sensible. Decision making skills get honed (with immediate feedback if your decision making is poor). Just the kind of thing to have when you're faced with a problem that the SOPs cannot guide on.
I have 1000 hours pilot in command and have yet to get an airline interview (let alone a job). These hours have been 'in command'...i.e. if it turns to sh1t in any way then it is my role to get it back.
As the axiom goes. A superior pilot does not need to use his superior handling skills, as his superior judgement and decision making skills help him to avoid the bad situation in the first place.
Flying Instruction allows an instructor to make the mistakes (at slow speeds) that allows an instructor to develop the judgement to stop it happening again when it may be for real..in something faster and heavier. I acknowledge that FIs may pick up some bad habits and (lets be honest) arrogance...but an apprenticeship as an FI has worked for the last 80 years of aviation. Why the sudden change?
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wither the flying instructor
the point in question seems to have been misunderstood, the work on this reims rocket is comercial work, it is run alongside an airline with the progresion oppertunities that offers. the flying is hands on there is no autopilot fitted. he is not doing as little hands on flying as an instructor, and the hours are no less benificial than instructional hours , possibly better, but he is still £5000 better off and is paid a reasonable wage. i am a QFI and instructed for 51/2 years before moving on to comercial flying to those arguing the point i sugest he will have a comercial position well before that long to which end as a career position he is correct it is a better way but i personaly wouldnt have missed my instructing
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Mystery Shopper, Crowwind Limits, fireflybob et al.
Don't blame you for your comments based on the magazine quote, but unfortunately the quote was NOT what the guy in question said to the writer at all. I know him well, and I'm afraid that the quote does him, and QFIs generally, a disservice. He is a consummate professional, and simply said that for him, personally, and at this stage in his career, he didn't want to instruct, spending money he didn't have at the time.
A deliberate misquote and a bit of sensationalist journalism, it would seem. Please don't think that the article represents his views accurately - it doesn't.
Duncan.
Don't blame you for your comments based on the magazine quote, but unfortunately the quote was NOT what the guy in question said to the writer at all. I know him well, and I'm afraid that the quote does him, and QFIs generally, a disservice. He is a consummate professional, and simply said that for him, personally, and at this stage in his career, he didn't want to instruct, spending money he didn't have at the time.
A deliberate misquote and a bit of sensationalist journalism, it would seem. Please don't think that the article represents his views accurately - it doesn't.
Duncan.
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I'm the author of the article and the publisher of the magazine, and I heard about this thread only last night. I think a few things need to be put into perspective here.
Firstly, this story was a brief sidebar to a 2,000-word profile of the flying club in question. I wrote it because I was intrigued to discover that a pilot in this chap's position should have no interest in getting an instructor rating. We had quite a long chat, which I had to precis into two paragraphs of quotes.
There was no arrogance in this young man, and he is certainly not a "plonker". He had thought long and hard about what he was doing and had concluded that it wasn't in his interests to spend £5,000 on the instructor rating when he believed the hours he was doing were every bit as valuable, or more so, in the eyes of prospective employers. The fact that he flew an aircraft with a wobbly prop was not an excuse for chest-beating on his part, simply a statement of fact - the aircraft does count as a complex single.
It's difficult to convey demeanour in a brief sidebar, but when you take out the umms and aahs, and the diffidence and attempts at justification, you get the nub of the matter, which can be summed up in the headline 'Whither the flying instructor?' As a flying instructor myself I'm interested in what the future holds for the breed. This chap's final quote was: "The old hours-building route has been killed off by the JARs, and I really wonder where the flying instructors are going to come from in the future. Certainly, there is little incentive for young people like me to pay for the rating."
He is a modest and thoughtful pilot who has been subjected to some personal abuse for thinking these things out loud, which is unfair. If I have contributed to your misconceptions about him, then I apologise. (It was certainly not a misquote, deliberate or otherwise, or "sensational journalism.")
Firstly, this story was a brief sidebar to a 2,000-word profile of the flying club in question. I wrote it because I was intrigued to discover that a pilot in this chap's position should have no interest in getting an instructor rating. We had quite a long chat, which I had to precis into two paragraphs of quotes.
There was no arrogance in this young man, and he is certainly not a "plonker". He had thought long and hard about what he was doing and had concluded that it wasn't in his interests to spend £5,000 on the instructor rating when he believed the hours he was doing were every bit as valuable, or more so, in the eyes of prospective employers. The fact that he flew an aircraft with a wobbly prop was not an excuse for chest-beating on his part, simply a statement of fact - the aircraft does count as a complex single.
It's difficult to convey demeanour in a brief sidebar, but when you take out the umms and aahs, and the diffidence and attempts at justification, you get the nub of the matter, which can be summed up in the headline 'Whither the flying instructor?' As a flying instructor myself I'm interested in what the future holds for the breed. This chap's final quote was: "The old hours-building route has been killed off by the JARs, and I really wonder where the flying instructors are going to come from in the future. Certainly, there is little incentive for young people like me to pay for the rating."
He is a modest and thoughtful pilot who has been subjected to some personal abuse for thinking these things out loud, which is unfair. If I have contributed to your misconceptions about him, then I apologise. (It was certainly not a misquote, deliberate or otherwise, or "sensational journalism.")
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.... spent many years instructing, I enjoyed it thoroughly, and agree about the benefits so far as captaincy, situational awareness and CRM are concerned.
And some years later, one finds onself in the left seat of a shiney jet, on a wild winters night, a new colleague sat in the right, with 200 hours total time plus line training under his/her belt.
I appreciate those years instructing for what they really were .. an education !
And some years later, one finds onself in the left seat of a shiney jet, on a wild winters night, a new colleague sat in the right, with 200 hours total time plus line training under his/her belt.
I appreciate those years instructing for what they really were .. an education !
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So, how do turboprop and air taxi outfits feel about instructors? Single pilot IFR under JAR requires 700hrs so it's not something that a 200hr FATPL is able to do. The 500+ extra hours have to come from somewhere. As for the turboprops, they seem to like to hire around the 1000hr mark; so that they can replace captains leaving for jet jobs with fairly experienced FO's upgrading. Again, where would the additional 800hrs or so after FATPL come from, if not instruction?
I've always seen the route to large jets as a series of stepping stones, upgrading to larger aircraft after the hours build up. Maybe jet operators don't care about instruction time but I find it hard to believe that most turboprop and air taxi outfits are as cold.
I've always seen the route to large jets as a series of stepping stones, upgrading to larger aircraft after the hours build up. Maybe jet operators don't care about instruction time but I find it hard to believe that most turboprop and air taxi outfits are as cold.
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The real enemy !
You are all directing your wrath in the wrong direction the real enemy of the instructor is the likes of the big flying schools.
It is they that have convinced the airlines that the only way to recrute new pilots is via the integrated course , this is compleat rubbish but it gets the money into the schools pockets.
It is high time that the airline industry awoke to the fact that the last thing a company wants or needs is a bunch of Oxford or Cabair clones with little or no experiance of aviation outside the learning system, it's bad for the atmosphere inside a company it's bad for flight safety and in the end it will be bad for the business as a whole.
I am starting to become very disenchanted with the things that I see it airline recrutment at the moment and think that I will have to play my part in changing it from the inside.
As for the young man who sees no point in instructing , he has his finger on the pulse of the airline industry........... but I do hope that I don't have to sit next to him on a night Tenarife I would probably want to kill myself (or him) after that !.
It is they that have convinced the airlines that the only way to recrute new pilots is via the integrated course , this is compleat rubbish but it gets the money into the schools pockets.
It is high time that the airline industry awoke to the fact that the last thing a company wants or needs is a bunch of Oxford or Cabair clones with little or no experiance of aviation outside the learning system, it's bad for the atmosphere inside a company it's bad for flight safety and in the end it will be bad for the business as a whole.
I am starting to become very disenchanted with the things that I see it airline recrutment at the moment and think that I will have to play my part in changing it from the inside.
As for the young man who sees no point in instructing , he has his finger on the pulse of the airline industry........... but I do hope that I don't have to sit next to him on a night Tenarife I would probably want to kill myself (or him) after that !.
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I have to agree this is partly the fault of the big schools and this could be coming home to roost as Oxford have trouble recuiting instructors.
On a more positive note I started instructing 3 1/2 years ago and now have 2800 tt 1500 multi piston and 200 multi turbine soon to be an IRE/TRI. This all started through instruction, with some additional investment and a couple of gambles changing jobs.
I did start earning £15 a day commuting for 2 hours but I now earn more than most regional turbo prop captains. I believe that there are many benefits to instructing both for airmanship and the fact it is good fun and if you keep working at it and move into the more advanced training this will lead onto airline/corporate.
For instructors with experience start sending CV's to the IR schools as many are looking for CPL/IR and multi instructors.
On a more positive note I started instructing 3 1/2 years ago and now have 2800 tt 1500 multi piston and 200 multi turbine soon to be an IRE/TRI. This all started through instruction, with some additional investment and a couple of gambles changing jobs.
I did start earning £15 a day commuting for 2 hours but I now earn more than most regional turbo prop captains. I believe that there are many benefits to instructing both for airmanship and the fact it is good fun and if you keep working at it and move into the more advanced training this will lead onto airline/corporate.
For instructors with experience start sending CV's to the IR schools as many are looking for CPL/IR and multi instructors.
Last edited by African Drunk; 6th Jan 2005 at 09:15.
