Magneto Checks on Shutdown
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Magneto Checks on Shutdown
I was taught and have always taught that prior to shutdown students should do a quick Magneto dead-cut check. ie quickly switching mag's to off and back to both determining that the mag's are not live in the off position. This is a safety check to reduce the possibility of a prop kicking back when handled. However I've noticed a number of students checking the "L" and "R" positions prior to shutdown and not the deadcut check. Is there any useful reason for doing this, apart from checking both mag's are working, which should be checked prior to takeoff on the next flight anyway. Any comments?
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Both checks accomplish exactly the same task. I think it all depends on who your instructors instructors instrutor was ...if you get what I mean.
I didn't like the dead-cut because on charter ops your passengers don't generally like the abrupt change in engine noise.
I didn't like the dead-cut because on charter ops your passengers don't generally like the abrupt change in engine noise.
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UAS, ATC was always a deadcut check but Civilian world to me has always been check drop on both before shutdown. Don't know the history of why the difference but they achieve the same thing.
I think the deadcut has more potential to damage the engine/ignition is done in-expertly by a student.
WWW
I think the deadcut has more potential to damage the engine/ignition is done in-expertly by a student.
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The reason why there are differences is that, there is a general lack of understanding of how the magneto switch is wired. In the case of most puddlejumpers the magnetos are selected by a rotary switch, usually controlled by a key. In a few types (e.g. Chipmunk, Seneca) they are selected individually by toggle or rocker switches.
In the latter case, a check of each magneto switch in turn will confirm, by a drop in RPM, that the appropriate magneto is earthed when the switch is selected off. Nothing is gained by selecting both switches off together. You know that both magnetos will be safe.
However, in the case of the rotary switch, confirming an RPM drop at each of the 'L' and 'R' positions does not prove that the magnetos will be earthed when the switch is set to the 'OFF' position. On the back of the switch are connected three earthing wires, one earths the right magneto when 'L' is selected, one earths the left magneto when 'R' is selected and the third earths both magnetos when 'OFF' is selected. If the 'OFF' wire is disconnected or broken then a pre-shutdown check of 'L' and 'R' will indicate that each magneto can be switched off but, when the switch is selected to 'OFF', both magnetos will be live.
It must be remembered that a check of the 'OFF' position of the rotary switch must be carried out ONLY with the throttle fully closed to avoid unnecessary strain being imposed on the cylinders and crankshaft.
You can see that, contrary to Turbine's post, both checks do not accomplish exactly the same task. One confirms that the magnetos will both be earthed when the rotary switch is selected 'OFF', the other doesn't. Also, remember that, even if a 'dead cut' check is carried out, the system is fail-unsafe and the prop must always be treated as live. Think about that the next time you are checking the alternator belt - now there's a pointless and dangerous check!
[This message has been edited by rolling circle (edited 18 January 2000).]
In the latter case, a check of each magneto switch in turn will confirm, by a drop in RPM, that the appropriate magneto is earthed when the switch is selected off. Nothing is gained by selecting both switches off together. You know that both magnetos will be safe.
However, in the case of the rotary switch, confirming an RPM drop at each of the 'L' and 'R' positions does not prove that the magnetos will be earthed when the switch is set to the 'OFF' position. On the back of the switch are connected three earthing wires, one earths the right magneto when 'L' is selected, one earths the left magneto when 'R' is selected and the third earths both magnetos when 'OFF' is selected. If the 'OFF' wire is disconnected or broken then a pre-shutdown check of 'L' and 'R' will indicate that each magneto can be switched off but, when the switch is selected to 'OFF', both magnetos will be live.
It must be remembered that a check of the 'OFF' position of the rotary switch must be carried out ONLY with the throttle fully closed to avoid unnecessary strain being imposed on the cylinders and crankshaft.
You can see that, contrary to Turbine's post, both checks do not accomplish exactly the same task. One confirms that the magnetos will both be earthed when the rotary switch is selected 'OFF', the other doesn't. Also, remember that, even if a 'dead cut' check is carried out, the system is fail-unsafe and the prop must always be treated as live. Think about that the next time you are checking the alternator belt - now there's a pointless and dangerous check!
[This message has been edited by rolling circle (edited 18 January 2000).]
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How can checking that each mag works independently confirm that they both shut off when the key is turned to off?
Just prior to shutdown you're running close to idle, so the rpm drop when you switch to a single magneto may not be noticeable anyway. You might check R, check L, cut the mixture, turn the key to off, and walk away not knowing that the mags aren't both off.
It's true that if something has gone wrong with that switch, it might show up in the L/R check, but do you want to bet your right arm on it?
Just prior to shutdown you're running close to idle, so the rpm drop when you switch to a single magneto may not be noticeable anyway. You might check R, check L, cut the mixture, turn the key to off, and walk away not knowing that the mags aren't both off.
It's true that if something has gone wrong with that switch, it might show up in the L/R check, but do you want to bet your right arm on it?
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I have been taught by a number of instructors, including my FIC instructor, to only do a L/R drop-no stop check. My understanding is that the dead cut is a pointless check and can damage the engine. You are confirming that the magnetoes are earthing correctly by the drop-no stop check.
Time to check the manufacturers handbook me-thinks.
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0 to 2000ft in 10 minutes
[This message has been edited by climbs like a dog (edited 19 January 2000).]
Time to check the manufacturers handbook me-thinks.
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0 to 2000ft in 10 minutes
[This message has been edited by climbs like a dog (edited 19 January 2000).]
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Rolling Circle is absolutely correct. A check with both mags OFF where individual switches are fitted is unnecessary, in aircraft fitted with a rotary switch it is eminently sensible.
I'm afraid c.l.a.d. that you have been sadly misinformed, and by so many people too! - by carrying out the check you suggest you are confirming only that the right mag is earthed when L is selected and vice versa, the state of the mags when OFF is selected has not been tested and you have no idea, as you walk away from the aeroplane, whether the mags are live or not.
Furthermore, if done properly, there is no danger of damaging the engine. The check has been carried out prior to shutdown in Bulldogs for over 20 years with no ill effects.
I'm afraid c.l.a.d. that you have been sadly misinformed, and by so many people too! - by carrying out the check you suggest you are confirming only that the right mag is earthed when L is selected and vice versa, the state of the mags when OFF is selected has not been tested and you have no idea, as you walk away from the aeroplane, whether the mags are live or not.
Furthermore, if done properly, there is no danger of damaging the engine. The check has been carried out prior to shutdown in Bulldogs for over 20 years with no ill effects.
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Originally posted by rolling circle:
Think about that the next time you are checking the alternator belt - now there's a pointless and dangerous check!
Think about that the next time you are checking the alternator belt - now there's a pointless and dangerous check!
And yes, I've seen both, found one of them myself, and been able to be very happy that I spotted it before it became a flight safety issue. On the ground, it was a squawk, in the air, at night, in busy airspace, it could have been a very different matter indeed. Yes, be aware of the implications of being close to props even when they're supposed to be safe, but don't throw away a check because you've never found anything wrong!
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"Irish" Steve
[This message has been edited by Irish Steve (edited 19 January 2000).]
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The check is called a live mag check ,you are ensuring the p lead (mag ground wire)is properlygrounded and the magnetto's can be turned of on the ground.This check prevents accidental ignition of any fumes in the engine thus preventing injury to anybody in the vicinity of the prop. The first check after start-up is the dead mag check,after all no point in taxiing an airplane witha dead mag. The next mag check is done during run-up at a power seting from the POh usally 1700 in cessna's; from both select left this will run the engine on the left mag only you should see a drop of about 50 rpm proving that you have isolated the right mag the rpm should not drop more than 125 on the 150/172' see poh for larger engine's.if the drop is more than 125 you have a problem.Could be fouled plugs/bad mags.Next Select Both then go to the right mag if is >50<125 sounds good back to both .you have now proved the mags are working to known specification,also you know you can isolate the left or right mags should one start miss firing in flight and a very scary vibration starts.do not be scared fiddle with evething in flight if the engine sounds bad. There you go the mystery of the mag checks why and how .Do you know if your mags have an impulse coupling or the shower of sparks . blue skies or fly low.
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Original question was "why quick mag check before shutdown"
DO it slow and you will hear why it is recommended to do it quick.I will type real slow as I know you will be reading this slow .
The mag check that is done before shutdown is a safety check to ensure the mags are NOT LIVE when the mag switche's are in the OFF position. By turning the mags off the engine will normally not get a spark.
If there is a broken P-lead the off postion will not ground out the mags and the engine will have live mags.A very dangerous situation as the engine can start by turning the prop. Even with the mixture out there can be enough vapour to ignite and hurt someone .
DO it slow and you will hear why it is recommended to do it quick.I will type real slow as I know you will be reading this slow .
The mag check that is done before shutdown is a safety check to ensure the mags are NOT LIVE when the mag switche's are in the OFF position. By turning the mags off the engine will normally not get a spark.
If there is a broken P-lead the off postion will not ground out the mags and the engine will have live mags.A very dangerous situation as the engine can start by turning the prop. Even with the mixture out there can be enough vapour to ignite and hurt someone .
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Part of the problem is terminology confusion, too. I used to get around this by calling the mags OFF check (rotary switch) the NO LIVE MAG check, and the Left-Right check the NO DEAD CUT check. With throttle closed (500-600 RPM or so) the same check (BOTH-R-L-OFF-BOTH) was conducted after startup and before shutdown, this helped to reinforce the difference between these two (really the same) and the MAG DROP check, which of course, early students tended to do - and at 1700 RPM or whatever the mags were turned to OFF. As an instructor, I always anticipated this possibility with early students and had my left hand near the mixture control, and watched the student's hand like a hawk - you could tell by the hesitant way they operated the key that the old OFF job was on the cards. Turning the key to OFF will not damage anything - apart from making the next start more difficult with an empty carburettor -but turning it back ON again might, of course. So quickly pulling the mixture to ICO was the answer, to prevent the student turning the key back to BOTH. Of course it meant a bit of embarrassment at the holding point, but obviously better than the possible alternative.
DH
DH
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I believe the final decision rests with the flight manual or POH. I know for certain that the PA28 manual recommends letting the engine stop if it has inadvertantly switched to off. This would indicate to me that switching it to OFF deliberately would not be a wise thing to do. Check the specific engine manufacturers' handling notes to decide this one.
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I refer to my original post:
"The reason why there are differences is that there is a general lack of understanding of how the magneto switch is wired."
Having read the rubbish that has been written since, I can say only - Quod Erat Demonstrandum!!
"The reason why there are differences is that there is a general lack of understanding of how the magneto switch is wired."
Having read the rubbish that has been written since, I can say only - Quod Erat Demonstrandum!!