Instructor pay & national minimum wage
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Join Date: May 2001
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Instructor pay & national minimum wage
I work for a large flight training organisation in east Scotland.. .This company is subject to an investigation by the low pay regulatory authorities. This authority has been monitoring pay against hours worked by instructors.
For the past year we have had to record all instructors working hours these are to be checked by the low pay authority & compared against pay received.. .Now however, my employers have re-defined the meaning of the word work & to cut a long story short we have now been told to only record . .Actual time spent with a customer,i.e. flight time & briefing time,. .Checking students navigation plogs. .Filling in logbook & timesheet. .Fueling aircraft etc.
Therefore if I spend 8 hours at work but only fly one hour, the low pay authority is under the impresion that I have only worked 1 hour & know nothing of the other seven hours that I have actually been at work.
I realise that the profit margins are quite tight in flying schools but the national minimun wage was set up to ensure that low paid employees are not exploited.
I do not expect to be well paid as a flying instructor, but after having spent £30,000 to become a professional pilot, it would be nice to earn at least as much as a toilet attendent.
No instructor should have to work for less than £4.10 per hour.
For the past year we have had to record all instructors working hours these are to be checked by the low pay authority & compared against pay received.. .Now however, my employers have re-defined the meaning of the word work & to cut a long story short we have now been told to only record . .Actual time spent with a customer,i.e. flight time & briefing time,. .Checking students navigation plogs. .Filling in logbook & timesheet. .Fueling aircraft etc.
Therefore if I spend 8 hours at work but only fly one hour, the low pay authority is under the impresion that I have only worked 1 hour & know nothing of the other seven hours that I have actually been at work.
I realise that the profit margins are quite tight in flying schools but the national minimun wage was set up to ensure that low paid employees are not exploited.
I do not expect to be well paid as a flying instructor, but after having spent £30,000 to become a professional pilot, it would be nice to earn at least as much as a toilet attendent.
No instructor should have to work for less than £4.10 per hour.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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I think if you work it out you'll find you are being paid the national minimum wage as your retainer, and any flying pay over and above that will put you above the NMW. I know the company you work for and as an employer you can do a lot worse. I left last year and so am not beholden to them and can say what I want which is: the investigation by the IR is unwarranted and will serve no useful purpose except to employ some accountants and investigators for a while. The terms and conditions at the place you work are better than at most other flying schools and if you don't **** people off you will be treated well too. Don't think the IR is any friend of yours - they'll **** up the whole UK flying training system given half a chance and leave instructors with no jobs at all, let alone poorly paid ones.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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I also know this company very well! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
DB6, "as an employer you can do a lot worse", really....where?
Everywhere I've worked since leaving that company have treated their instructors with much more respect, paid a lot more money and haven't been inclined to shaft instructors who leave for commercial jobs when they finally get there IR.
This latest idea of only counting flight/briefing time etc as being "work" is nonsense, if you are required by the company to turn up between the hours of 8 and whenever, you are at work for the whole time and should be paid as such!
What's next(?) logging each time you answer the phone until the call ends!
To clarify, this isn't sour grapes, I and my career survived my experiences with this company and I have some happy memories of my time there. None of them however invlove the management.
[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: ComJam ]</p>
DB6, "as an employer you can do a lot worse", really....where?
Everywhere I've worked since leaving that company have treated their instructors with much more respect, paid a lot more money and haven't been inclined to shaft instructors who leave for commercial jobs when they finally get there IR.
This latest idea of only counting flight/briefing time etc as being "work" is nonsense, if you are required by the company to turn up between the hours of 8 and whenever, you are at work for the whole time and should be paid as such!
What's next(?) logging each time you answer the phone until the call ends!
To clarify, this isn't sour grapes, I and my career survived my experiences with this company and I have some happy memories of my time there. None of them however invlove the management.
[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: ComJam ]</p>
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Sorry Stall-Turn, but you have simply stated the facts of life which ain’t going to change for the better in the short term.
We operate in an industry with exceptionally low margins and an over supply of instructors.
I suspect that the instructors laid off at the other two establishment operated by your company would be more than happy to be flying right now for the sort of retainer and flying pay you are enjoying….all be it low, to say the least.. .Your company has seen a significant downturn in business added to the loss of the RAF contract, so be thankful that you are still there.
As DB6 says you work for one of the better owners.
Fact is, PPL instruction is not going to earn you your fortune and if the boat is rocked , it could cost us the ability to fly.
You know the rules, and they haven’t changed since you started the game.
Sorry.
We operate in an industry with exceptionally low margins and an over supply of instructors.
I suspect that the instructors laid off at the other two establishment operated by your company would be more than happy to be flying right now for the sort of retainer and flying pay you are enjoying….all be it low, to say the least.. .Your company has seen a significant downturn in business added to the loss of the RAF contract, so be thankful that you are still there.
As DB6 says you work for one of the better owners.
Fact is, PPL instruction is not going to earn you your fortune and if the boat is rocked , it could cost us the ability to fly.
You know the rules, and they haven’t changed since you started the game.
Sorry.
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I have to agree, its a case of welcome to the real world.
Flying instructors are not the only people who invest a **** load of money into their chosen profession to find that the income isn't always there. I have been in my industry 12 years now and all I can say is its like a sine wave, sometimes you are overrun with work and othertimes you are wondering if the baliffs are going to come knocking!!!
Flying instructors are not the only people who invest a **** load of money into their chosen profession to find that the income isn't always there. I have been in my industry 12 years now and all I can say is its like a sine wave, sometimes you are overrun with work and othertimes you are wondering if the baliffs are going to come knocking!!!
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ComJam, I know a couple of people who had run-ins with the management and didn't enjoy their time up North but I stand by what I said; they are good people to work for, I had a cracking time there and but for the economies of starting a family would still be there now.. .They brought the thing in about recording time at work while I was there and I could never understand it because even working an 8 hour day without any flying the retainer covered the NMW, average monthly flying pay put you well above.. .While I haven't ever really worked for any bad employers I know several who have and they all reckon the organisation we're talking about is one of the better ones. Sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as I did.
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DB6 I can assure you there have been times where my pay has been less than NMW. This is a problem that could be easilly resolved & my employers could get the inland revenue off their backs for good by ensuring that all of their instructors are paid at least £4.10 for each hour worked, anything less is illegal !!. .But no the management have come up with this form to be filled in daily which makes it appear that we are not at work when in fact we are. I wonder whether it's even legal, it will certainly be an inconvenience having to spend 15 mins each day filling it in.
I am grateful to have a flying job, I know there are a lot of people who don't, but I still need to pay the mortgage, car loan, Instrument rating bank loan, petrol, etc.
There is an attitude in the flying instruction industry that flying instructors are getting free hours & therefore should'nt be paid much,. .well, that's fine but it does'nt keep my bank manager happy,
I am grateful to have a flying job, I know there are a lot of people who don't, but I still need to pay the mortgage, car loan, Instrument rating bank loan, petrol, etc.
There is an attitude in the flying instruction industry that flying instructors are getting free hours & therefore should'nt be paid much,. .well, that's fine but it does'nt keep my bank manager happy,
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I work for the company concearned & understand that a recent proposal was made to the management which would solve this problem completely, hopefully it will as more form filling is the last thing we need.
