What is wrong with flight training?
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Vancouver Island
What is wrong with flight training?
I live in Canada and we have a time requirement of 45 hours to complete a P.P.L.
The average time in Canada is now 70 to 80 hours before a student finally receives his/ her license.
When I learned to fly the requirement was 30 hours, we learned on tailwheel aircraft and used old technology nav aids. how come it takes so long to get a license today with easier training a/c and modern aids???
By the way a question for all you Brits here, I have trouble when flying in the U.K. when I hear someone on "finals" that word being plural I don't know which of several finals the other traffic may be on? Just drives me nuts looking all over the sky for the traffic.
Come on someone help me out here.
............................................
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The average time in Canada is now 70 to 80 hours before a student finally receives his/ her license.
When I learned to fly the requirement was 30 hours, we learned on tailwheel aircraft and used old technology nav aids. how come it takes so long to get a license today with easier training a/c and modern aids???
By the way a question for all you Brits here, I have trouble when flying in the U.K. when I hear someone on "finals" that word being plural I don't know which of several finals the other traffic may be on? Just drives me nuts looking all over the sky for the traffic.
Come on someone help me out here.
............................................
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 516
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From: New Zealand
I would say 60-70 hours would be the average. The time it takes can depend on a variety of reasons.
Over the years, the aviation authorities have added extra requirements to the basic PPL syllabus, without increasing the minimum hour requirement.
The ability of the student to learn and commit to learning is a big factor, as is the enthusiasm and knowledge of those doing the teaching.
The regularity that a student flies, will affect the time it takes to complete a PPL, as people who fly every day will be more 'current' with their skills and will require less in the way of revision or correction, when compared to another student who flies two or three times a month. This, of course, is usually dictated by the time and funds available to that student.
These are some of my ideas to answer your question.
Kermie
Over the years, the aviation authorities have added extra requirements to the basic PPL syllabus, without increasing the minimum hour requirement.
The ability of the student to learn and commit to learning is a big factor, as is the enthusiasm and knowledge of those doing the teaching.
The regularity that a student flies, will affect the time it takes to complete a PPL, as people who fly every day will be more 'current' with their skills and will require less in the way of revision or correction, when compared to another student who flies two or three times a month. This, of course, is usually dictated by the time and funds available to that student.
These are some of my ideas to answer your question.
Kermie
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 516
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From: New Zealand
Additional to the first post, as I am not in Britain I am unable to answer on their behalf re the finals call question. However, I would venture to say that if you keep a good listen out on the radio, the 'finals' call will always be accompanied by a runway number. That should help to diffuse your confusion.
Why it is stated as a plural, I have no idea, I guess its because the English language has many variations and it just so happens that the English are the worst at speaking it correctly.
Hang on a mo.... I say 'finals' too! Perhaps its the Canadians who have it wrong!
Why it is stated as a plural, I have no idea, I guess its because the English language has many variations and it just so happens that the English are the worst at speaking it correctly.
Hang on a mo.... I say 'finals' too! Perhaps its the Canadians who have it wrong!
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 96
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From: Hong Kong
Cat Driver,
'Finals', an excellent subject.
I for one always use the expression of 'Final' (singular if you please) and this is the shortened version of 'Final Approach'.
I too find it somewhat strange to be listening to someone talking about 'Finals' when they are in fact on Final Approach.
'Finals', an excellent subject.
I for one always use the expression of 'Final' (singular if you please) and this is the shortened version of 'Final Approach'.
I too find it somewhat strange to be listening to someone talking about 'Finals' when they are in fact on Final Approach.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 575
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From: Hither and Thither
In the U.K. it should always be singular,
'Final' for 4 miles or less, 'Long Final' for 8 to 4 miles.'Short Final' is not defined,but generally held to be less than 2 miles.
It always slightly raises the hackles when a pilot/ATCO uses the plural, I wonder if the finer points of thr R/T lessons were wasted on them.
Yes, the runway designator should always be used (It's a last check to all parties that everyones singing from the same hymn sheet).
'Final' for 4 miles or less, 'Long Final' for 8 to 4 miles.'Short Final' is not defined,but generally held to be less than 2 miles.
It always slightly raises the hackles when a pilot/ATCO uses the plural, I wonder if the finer points of thr R/T lessons were wasted on them.
Yes, the runway designator should always be used (It's a last check to all parties that everyones singing from the same hymn sheet).
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,137
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From: Australia
Our syllabus is a pretty long document, and unless the student is right on the ball it's not easy to get through it in the minimum hours. Having said that, our average is 50 hours but we have the advantage of good weather.
In my experience it is the time to go first solo which makes the hours add up. Often this is due to people being put in the circuit before they have grasped the basics of how to fly the aeroplane, and as a result are behind the aeroplane for the first few hours, instead of spending another hour or two in the training area to get them able to climb, turn, fly straight and level and descend without too much effort before going into the circuit.
You can also save them a lot of time by telling them that if they focus up during landing and not down they will save hundreds of dollars! That sort of motivation works every time. If they get into the habit of looking just over the nose instead of into the distance, it can take many wasted hours just breaking that habit before they can grasp the flare and landing.
In my experience it is the time to go first solo which makes the hours add up. Often this is due to people being put in the circuit before they have grasped the basics of how to fly the aeroplane, and as a result are behind the aeroplane for the first few hours, instead of spending another hour or two in the training area to get them able to climb, turn, fly straight and level and descend without too much effort before going into the circuit.
You can also save them a lot of time by telling them that if they focus up during landing and not down they will save hundreds of dollars! That sort of motivation works every time. If they get into the habit of looking just over the nose instead of into the distance, it can take many wasted hours just breaking that habit before they can grasp the flare and landing.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
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From: Vancouver Island
Hi:
Red Four....Curtis Jenny....Kermit 180...& C.F.I.
My reason for posting is to try and point out some of the shortfalls in the methods and the amount of time used in flight training.
As to the finals thing I am quite aware of what these people mean, it is just irritating to hear them miss-speak, hell we should strive at accuracy in flying including proper use of the language. I ferry aircraft all over the world and the language thing is enough of a problem without having to listen to english speaking pilots screw up their own language....There that gets that put in its place..
Now to training, everyone of you make good points, C.F.I. is right on about the inability of students to master landings unless they are taught where to look and the picture they need to see.
I use a camcorder that is mounted in the exact eye level that the pilots actually see out the windshield. When the training flight is over I de-brief using the film of the flight we just finished. The camcorder is connected to a T.V and I can stop the film at any point in the approach and landing and then ask the student to tell me where he/ she was looking and what they think they were looking for. I give the student a laser pen to point at the T.V. screen so there is no missunderstanding where they were looking.
Anyhow you guys / girls or whaterve your sexual persuasion, that is one of the many aids thatI use to ensure the student grasps exactly what I am trying to teach them.
If any of you are interested I can stay on this subject and we can all try and help each other, as I have learned a lot about teaching flying over the past forty or more years by osmosis alone. You may find some of my methods to be of use in your own careers.
If not why just tell me to get stuffed, I won't be offended.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Red Four....Curtis Jenny....Kermit 180...& C.F.I.
My reason for posting is to try and point out some of the shortfalls in the methods and the amount of time used in flight training.
As to the finals thing I am quite aware of what these people mean, it is just irritating to hear them miss-speak, hell we should strive at accuracy in flying including proper use of the language. I ferry aircraft all over the world and the language thing is enough of a problem without having to listen to english speaking pilots screw up their own language....There that gets that put in its place..
Now to training, everyone of you make good points, C.F.I. is right on about the inability of students to master landings unless they are taught where to look and the picture they need to see.
I use a camcorder that is mounted in the exact eye level that the pilots actually see out the windshield. When the training flight is over I de-brief using the film of the flight we just finished. The camcorder is connected to a T.V and I can stop the film at any point in the approach and landing and then ask the student to tell me where he/ she was looking and what they think they were looking for. I give the student a laser pen to point at the T.V. screen so there is no missunderstanding where they were looking.
Anyhow you guys / girls or whaterve your sexual persuasion, that is one of the many aids thatI use to ensure the student grasps exactly what I am trying to teach them.
If any of you are interested I can stay on this subject and we can all try and help each other, as I have learned a lot about teaching flying over the past forty or more years by osmosis alone. You may find some of my methods to be of use in your own careers.
If not why just tell me to get stuffed, I won't be offended.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
