Engine Starting - Airmanship
Engine Starting - Airmanship
I was always taught never to start engine(s) with the tail pointing directly towards open hangar doors and also with the aircraft a "safe" distance from the hangar due to fire risk on start-up. Starting the engine accordingly is a good way to upset engineers working in said hangar by blowing all the dirt/grit into the hangar!
Sometimes I see quite experienced pilots (including instructors, I am sad to say) ignoring this basic piece of airmanship. Am I being fussy on asking ground crew to position the aircraft suitably for start-up?
Sometimes I see quite experienced pilots (including instructors, I am sad to say) ignoring this basic piece of airmanship. Am I being fussy on asking ground crew to position the aircraft suitably for start-up?
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I have always been told never to start with my prop wash blasting into the hangar. If i need to, i move the aircraft so its further away or not pointing directly in.
Maybe the instructors/pilots rather than the ground crew should think before starting.
Maybe the instructors/pilots rather than the ground crew should think before starting.
Don't think Vigilants blast anything with their propwash! 
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Am I being fussy on asking ground crew to position the aircraft suitably for start-up?
Better still, get the Stude to do it - they love a challenge.
tacpot, I often do!
Problem is that the ground crew are employed by the aerodrome operator and from time to time some instructors employed by said operator start up with tail facing towards open hangar doors ,etc. You then get some strange looks when you query where they are parking the aircraft for starting when you ask, politely, for it to be moved to a more sensible position.
The rules at said aerodrome only permit the ground crew to move aircraft in and out of the hangar.
Problem is that the ground crew are employed by the aerodrome operator and from time to time some instructors employed by said operator start up with tail facing towards open hangar doors ,etc. You then get some strange looks when you query where they are parking the aircraft for starting when you ask, politely, for it to be moved to a more sensible position.
The rules at said aerodrome only permit the ground crew to move aircraft in and out of the hangar.
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As with many things, this sounds like an on-going 'education' matter. Please persevere with the education of the ground staff & insructors - it's definitely worth it. My previous comment was purposefully flippant.
I agree it's a bit sad that it falls to one knowledgable person to educate a raft of people, but knowledge sometimes is a burden!
I agree it's a bit sad that it falls to one knowledgable person to educate a raft of people, but knowledge sometimes is a burden!
Engine Starting - Airmanship.
Good post, Fireflybob.
There really is only one answer, isn't there ?
BEFORE STARTING, ALWAYS BE CLEAR BEHIND
Surely its one of the things we first teach a student, along with, for example, the presence of a Fire Extinguisher, the direction of the surface wind, the expected Taxi route, are the chocks in position or Brakes on ..........
I admit that there will be times when congestion may make this difficult but there is still no excuse. Aircraft can always be moved by hand. It only takes the will - not impatience.
Nobody has the right to blast dust, grit or grass clippings all over hangared aircraft - or the right to blast another aircraft which may be on jacks, untethered or unchocked.
Remember also that you may have to use a HIGHER power setting to start taxying. What effect is that going to have on aircraft close to you.
So, please, close that hangar door, move YOUR aircraft or get the OTHER aircraft moved and we'll all be happy.
Sleeve.
There really is only one answer, isn't there ?
BEFORE STARTING, ALWAYS BE CLEAR BEHIND
Surely its one of the things we first teach a student, along with, for example, the presence of a Fire Extinguisher, the direction of the surface wind, the expected Taxi route, are the chocks in position or Brakes on ..........
I admit that there will be times when congestion may make this difficult but there is still no excuse. Aircraft can always be moved by hand. It only takes the will - not impatience.
Nobody has the right to blast dust, grit or grass clippings all over hangared aircraft - or the right to blast another aircraft which may be on jacks, untethered or unchocked.
Remember also that you may have to use a HIGHER power setting to start taxying. What effect is that going to have on aircraft close to you.
So, please, close that hangar door, move YOUR aircraft or get the OTHER aircraft moved and we'll all be happy.
Sleeve.
Next time someone's propwash enters the hangar hand them a broom as soon as they shutdown.
Their mess, their job to sweep it up.
Start that practice from first flight with the organisation.
Their mess, their job to sweep it up.
Start that practice from first flight with the organisation.
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Another engine starting airmanship point; how many people call 'Clear Prop'?
And if the do do they check after shouting? ON the occasion at GA airfields where i have heard it the prop is normally drowned out by a roar of a starting engine!
Just a thought!
And if the do do they check after shouting? ON the occasion at GA airfields where i have heard it the prop is normally drowned out by a roar of a starting engine!
Just a thought!
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How it's REALLY done
Nah, you're all wrong.
Preflight the aircraft right where it is, walking around all the other aircraft in close proximity to do so.
Get in.
Turn on master and listen to the ATIS.
Fasten harness.
Attempt to adjust seat.
Release harness, adjust seat, refasten harness.
Turn off ATIS (been going all this time you see.)
Turn on magnetos.
Prime for a cold start.
Realise the engine is warm. Oh well, can't un-prime.
Staring at instrument panel, mumble "area clear".
Start engine.
Apply park brake.
Do some checks - magneto dead cut and so on.
Retard throttle so RPM gets back below 2000, where it's been since start.
Look up for the first time since pre-flight.
Shut down and move aircraft parked 1.7m in front.
Start again from "get in".
After all, 10,000 students can't be wrong can they?
Oktas8
Preflight the aircraft right where it is, walking around all the other aircraft in close proximity to do so.
Get in.
Turn on master and listen to the ATIS.
Fasten harness.
Attempt to adjust seat.
Release harness, adjust seat, refasten harness.
Turn off ATIS (been going all this time you see.)
Turn on magnetos.
Prime for a cold start.
Realise the engine is warm. Oh well, can't un-prime.
Staring at instrument panel, mumble "area clear".
Start engine.
Apply park brake.
Do some checks - magneto dead cut and so on.
Retard throttle so RPM gets back below 2000, where it's been since start.
Look up for the first time since pre-flight.
Shut down and move aircraft parked 1.7m in front.
Start again from "get in".
After all, 10,000 students can't be wrong can they?
Oktas8
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Oktas8,
Haven't laughed at a post so much in along while - particularly liked the "look up for the first time...." line, nice :-)
Had a stud once who was shambling through his left to right checks, got to the radio and had a complete coggie. He was just supposed to turn it on and then carry on (coming back to it after engine start to call for taxy). But he 'jumped a number of lines' and called for taxy.
ATC duly gave him taxy clearance and he motioned to the marshaller to pull the chocks - the marshaller looked quizically at him, but did what he was told - putting down the fire extinguisher first (hint number 1).
Student dutifully checks left and right, mumbles 'engine instruments all in the green' and advances the throttle. Strangley, the aircraft does not move forward - so the throttle moves further forward, still nothing (hint number 2 was the stationary propeller in front of us).
It was too much to bear, so (reverting to my training) I tried hinting:
"It's a bit quiet in here D*** isn't it?"
The defeated moan from the front indicated the penny had now dropped.
He went on to fly heavy metal.
Ray G
Haven't laughed at a post so much in along while - particularly liked the "look up for the first time...." line, nice :-)
Had a stud once who was shambling through his left to right checks, got to the radio and had a complete coggie. He was just supposed to turn it on and then carry on (coming back to it after engine start to call for taxy). But he 'jumped a number of lines' and called for taxy.
ATC duly gave him taxy clearance and he motioned to the marshaller to pull the chocks - the marshaller looked quizically at him, but did what he was told - putting down the fire extinguisher first (hint number 1).
Student dutifully checks left and right, mumbles 'engine instruments all in the green' and advances the throttle. Strangley, the aircraft does not move forward - so the throttle moves further forward, still nothing (hint number 2 was the stationary propeller in front of us).
It was too much to bear, so (reverting to my training) I tried hinting:
"It's a bit quiet in here D*** isn't it?"
The defeated moan from the front indicated the penny had now dropped.
He went on to fly heavy metal.
Ray G
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It is too late shouting clear prop just before turning the key to start.
The time to shout clear prop (and check that it is clear) is before turning on the master switch because an electrical fault could result in the starter rotating the prop as soon as the master is turned on.
Engineers do it all the time but unfortunately few if any pilots.
Regards,
DFC
The time to shout clear prop (and check that it is clear) is before turning on the master switch because an electrical fault could result in the starter rotating the prop as soon as the master is turned on.
Engineers do it all the time but unfortunately few if any pilots.
Regards,
DFC
Sorry DFC beg to disagree on that one!
Yes, there is a slight risk that when you turn the master switch on the starter solenoid may be energised and the prop might therefore turn.
However, I feel that shouting prop in this situation is like "shouting wolf" and it reduces the effectiveness of shouting "clear prop" when you are really about to start the engine. Bit like burglar alarms going off on motor calls - if it happens all the time people stop taking any notice.
At a training establishment where I was teaching a little while ago my boss (a very experienced CFS instructor) actually went and had a word with the engineers and politely asked them not to call "clear prop" when about to turn the master on and when he explained the reasons they were quite happy to comply.
In summary by all means check the prop area is clear before turning the master on but best only to call clear prop just before engine starting.
Of course, another way around all this is to have a competent member of ground crew on the outside to give you the all clear!
Yes, there is a slight risk that when you turn the master switch on the starter solenoid may be energised and the prop might therefore turn.
However, I feel that shouting prop in this situation is like "shouting wolf" and it reduces the effectiveness of shouting "clear prop" when you are really about to start the engine. Bit like burglar alarms going off on motor calls - if it happens all the time people stop taking any notice.
At a training establishment where I was teaching a little while ago my boss (a very experienced CFS instructor) actually went and had a word with the engineers and politely asked them not to call "clear prop" when about to turn the master on and when he explained the reasons they were quite happy to comply.
In summary by all means check the prop area is clear before turning the master on but best only to call clear prop just before engine starting.
Of course, another way around all this is to have a competent member of ground crew on the outside to give you the all clear!
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Use Basic English Please
"Clear Prop" is a useless phase for pilots to use anyway because:
1. airside personnel are usually very prop aware and tend not to dawdle around stationary or rotating propellers unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, any shouted warning is probably not really necessary for these folk.
2. in today's security conscious world very few non-aviation personnel are allowed airside and, even if they were, do we really believe that they would understand the operational impact of the shouted warning "clear PROP" (what's a prop fer chrissake? Something actors use or maybe its a piece of wood to jam a door open?).
If we have to shout warnings before starting, why don't we pilots simply use basic English and shout out "Stand (or Keep) Clear". At least then the average, non-aviation aware, airside blow-in who inadvertently gets too close to a prop might have some chance of avoiding disaster through being able to quickly comprehend the shouted warning.
I would strongly recommend all pilots change from shouting "Clear Prop" and use the phrase "Stand or Keep Clear" instead (or some other similarly appropriate plain English phrase).
1. airside personnel are usually very prop aware and tend not to dawdle around stationary or rotating propellers unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, any shouted warning is probably not really necessary for these folk.
2. in today's security conscious world very few non-aviation personnel are allowed airside and, even if they were, do we really believe that they would understand the operational impact of the shouted warning "clear PROP" (what's a prop fer chrissake? Something actors use or maybe its a piece of wood to jam a door open?).
If we have to shout warnings before starting, why don't we pilots simply use basic English and shout out "Stand (or Keep) Clear". At least then the average, non-aviation aware, airside blow-in who inadvertently gets too close to a prop might have some chance of avoiding disaster through being able to quickly comprehend the shouted warning.
I would strongly recommend all pilots change from shouting "Clear Prop" and use the phrase "Stand or Keep Clear" instead (or some other similarly appropriate plain English phrase).
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fireflybob,
I can't see the point of your boss telling the engineers not to make a safety call that has been common safe practice for decades. In fact should an incident happen it is clear that the safety net was removed. Perhaps he did not learn how to cover his backside at CFS!!
Perhaps that guy can get the engineers to stop that red voltage light illuminating when the battery is turned on....after all if the engine isn't running it is only crying wolf!!!
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QSK,
Agree totally. It isn't the words that count but the fact that a warning which is understood by the people it is aimed at is issued.
How many French people understand "clear prop"?.......more than Engilsh people who understand the French equivalent.
Simply shouting Oi Oi Oi loudly can act as a verbal warning even if it would not be CFS standard and a bit yob-ish
Perhaps we should have a simple horn system fitted similar to the system that we have for lorries reversing.
Regards,
DFC
I can't see the point of your boss telling the engineers not to make a safety call that has been common safe practice for decades. In fact should an incident happen it is clear that the safety net was removed. Perhaps he did not learn how to cover his backside at CFS!!
Perhaps that guy can get the engineers to stop that red voltage light illuminating when the battery is turned on....after all if the engine isn't running it is only crying wolf!!!
---------
QSK,
Agree totally. It isn't the words that count but the fact that a warning which is understood by the people it is aimed at is issued.
How many French people understand "clear prop"?.......more than Engilsh people who understand the French equivalent.
Simply shouting Oi Oi Oi loudly can act as a verbal warning even if it would not be CFS standard and a bit yob-ish
Perhaps we should have a simple horn system fitted similar to the system that we have for lorries reversing.
Regards,
DFC
