Your first week?
Not so N, but still FG
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That's a sensible viewpoint FFF, as the hassle associated with asserting one's rights should not be underestimated.
One thing hard done by instructors might consider is that the Inland Revenue has a little known enforcement power in relation to minimum wages, and can investigate deductions from pay etc.
One thing hard done by instructors might consider is that the Inland Revenue has a little known enforcement power in relation to minimum wages, and can investigate deductions from pay etc.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Long Final,
The new job is at Blackpool, working for WestAir. A completely new part of the world for me - I've never even used a North of England chart before (except to plan a couple of flights which were cancelled due to weather). But with the combination of a very large line feature (aka the coast), and Blackpool Tower (the large structure in the town, not the callsign of ATC), I can't think of very many places which will be easier to find my way around!
Quick note to everyone, since I realise that this thread has caused a fair bit of interest. I will be packing up my PC ready for the move within a day or two, which means I won't be able to read/reply to posts. I will reply to anything that needs a reply once I get back on-line, but in the mean time please don't take it personally if I ignore your messages.
FFF
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The new job is at Blackpool, working for WestAir. A completely new part of the world for me - I've never even used a North of England chart before (except to plan a couple of flights which were cancelled due to weather). But with the combination of a very large line feature (aka the coast), and Blackpool Tower (the large structure in the town, not the callsign of ATC), I can't think of very many places which will be easier to find my way around!
Quick note to everyone, since I realise that this thread has caused a fair bit of interest. I will be packing up my PC ready for the move within a day or two, which means I won't be able to read/reply to posts. I will reply to anything that needs a reply once I get back on-line, but in the mean time please don't take it personally if I ignore your messages.
FFF
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Hi FlyingForFun,
All the best for the new job at Blackpool.
I'm flying up to Glasgow in a few weeks time and will be using Blackpool as my refuelling point. I'll pop in and say hi if you're around.
Watch your waist line as there are plenty of take aways within very easy walking distance of the terminal building at Blackpool...
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
All the best for the new job at Blackpool.
I'm flying up to Glasgow in a few weeks time and will be using Blackpool as my refuelling point. I'll pop in and say hi if you're around.
Watch your waist line as there are plenty of take aways within very easy walking distance of the terminal building at Blackpool...
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
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FFF
Well done for your move. I think you are right to expect more. Although it is always a little hard to start with you sound like you want to work hard and so it will work out. On the subject of idiot CFI/Owners.... having worked at 5 schools: first one was abroad and absolutely outstanding, second in the UK not bad, third was slow with a menacing air and I was told to pay for my checkout on leaving, I didn't so they kept about 90 quid of mine, so I was still laughing when I was at the fourth where I was sacked for going to an interview. By now I was in hysterics as my barely readable letter saying 'we don't need you' arrived on the same day as my employment contract from the fifth school, where I worked hard, had fun and managed 100 hrs/month in the summer @ £20/hour. Now work in air taxi and still waiting for the £200 holiday pay from the fifth school from last September! Hilarious! Quite a mixed bag but it is ones colleagues and immediate superiors who make it or break it really. Onwards and upwards!
Well done for your move. I think you are right to expect more. Although it is always a little hard to start with you sound like you want to work hard and so it will work out. On the subject of idiot CFI/Owners.... having worked at 5 schools: first one was abroad and absolutely outstanding, second in the UK not bad, third was slow with a menacing air and I was told to pay for my checkout on leaving, I didn't so they kept about 90 quid of mine, so I was still laughing when I was at the fourth where I was sacked for going to an interview. By now I was in hysterics as my barely readable letter saying 'we don't need you' arrived on the same day as my employment contract from the fifth school, where I worked hard, had fun and managed 100 hrs/month in the summer @ £20/hour. Now work in air taxi and still waiting for the £200 holiday pay from the fifth school from last September! Hilarious! Quite a mixed bag but it is ones colleagues and immediate superiors who make it or break it really. Onwards and upwards!
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FNG, Flyteam aviation still owe me £138 from last year, as usual Amir Alam only pays part of his invoices. FFF's experience is fairly typical of this company. He threatens in a subtle way to not give references...and I know for a fact that he rings up prospective employers and 'doesn't recommend you'. He made the mistake of ringing a friend of mine about me
He made one instructor use a different name because he had fallen out with his previous instructor with the same name. When I left to work for someone else on the airfield he use to follow me around and hide in corners (really) to see if I was talking to Flyteam customers, and he would threaten to expell them if they flew with me
He uses his debts to get his own way with the airfield management 'If I go out of business, I wont be able to pay you what I owe you'
There are a lot more stories I could tell but they will probably panic the mods and be censored. If you want to help me get my dosh let me know.
Finally, well done FFF for the new job.
He made one instructor use a different name because he had fallen out with his previous instructor with the same name. When I left to work for someone else on the airfield he use to follow me around and hide in corners (really) to see if I was talking to Flyteam customers, and he would threaten to expell them if they flew with me
He uses his debts to get his own way with the airfield management 'If I go out of business, I wont be able to pay you what I owe you'
There are a lot more stories I could tell but they will probably panic the mods and be censored. If you want to help me get my dosh let me know.
Finally, well done FFF for the new job.
Not so N, but still FG
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pilotbear, could you kindly send to the email address which I have given you by PM a message or (if lengthy) a Word document setting out your claim in reasonable detail, and I'll let you know if there's anything you can do about the money due, but you will be too late now to use the simple procedures of the Employment Tribunal (which has very short time limits for claims) and would have to use the County Court, which charges issue fees. I would be interested to hear privately precisely what was said to your friend.
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Actually I would be interest to know the law as well on the subject of people giving bad references which are untrue.
I have heard of several Instructors that dread the day when they have to get references because they know fine that the CFI will try and stick the knife in.
MJ
I have heard of several Instructors that dread the day when they have to get references because they know fine that the CFI will try and stick the knife in.
MJ
Not so N, but still FG
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Mad Jock, I am not qualified to comment on Scots law, but in England and Wales the position is as follows.
In the case of Spring v Guardian Assurance (a case in which I appeared, losing on a penalty shoot out after a 4 all draw), the House of Lords decided that an employer owes a duty to a former employee to take care in giving a reference. A negligent reference may engage liability if it causes proveable and measurable loss.
The law of defamation is of less assistance to an employee than is the law of negligence, as a reference is subject to what is known as qualified privilege, and an employee can only sue for libel or slander in respect of untrue remarks in a reference if the maker of the remarks acted maliciously (that is: made a false statement without believing it to be true). Malice is enormously difficult to prove, which is why the opening up of the negligence route represented a significant change.
In the case of Spring v Guardian Assurance (a case in which I appeared, losing on a penalty shoot out after a 4 all draw), the House of Lords decided that an employer owes a duty to a former employee to take care in giving a reference. A negligent reference may engage liability if it causes proveable and measurable loss.
The law of defamation is of less assistance to an employee than is the law of negligence, as a reference is subject to what is known as qualified privilege, and an employee can only sue for libel or slander in respect of untrue remarks in a reference if the maker of the remarks acted maliciously (that is: made a false statement without believing it to be true). Malice is enormously difficult to prove, which is why the opening up of the negligence route represented a significant change.
Last edited by FNG; 24th Jul 2004 at 18:43.
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pilotBear:
Re. your "There are a lot more stories I could tell but they will probably panic the mods and be censored..."
It is a shame that we can't have a sensible/objective list of
"avoid" organisations. I think it would provide a good service both for those who are new and experienced.
Re. your "There are a lot more stories I could tell but they will probably panic the mods and be censored..."
It is a shame that we can't have a sensible/objective list of
"avoid" organisations. I think it would provide a good service both for those who are new and experienced.
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I can't stand injustice in employment, this is simply not fair. These people are breaking the law but seem to have the power over FI's trying to earn a living. At this point, may I just say that I'm about to become a student PPl and was just looking around the site.
I do employ almost 100 people and have had a lot of experience with the Employment Tribunals and with minimum wage legislation. If you want to pm me rather to talk on here, please do so, I'll try to be of assistance.
I'll just point out a few ways of causing this person(s) a few problems.
If you have a contract of employment (after 3 months they have to unless you're self employed). Then unless it is stated that they can withold payment and it is a 'express written term of your employment' then he can't do it. If you are an employee there must be a time recording for pay method? And a specified rate that you work for. They may be in breach of any point of these laws.
Assuming you're self employed, then you supply him an invoice for work done. Is there a written agreement / service agreement with a contracted £ per hour. If you can prove you have worked the hours (log book / booking form etc) then you can sue him for a breach of contract.
A visit from the minimum wage people is in order if he has no records or, has records but pays a lower amount than £4.50 per hour to you. If you are employed, do you get a payslip? If so deductions etc will have to be shown. If employed with no payslip, then is he paying your NI stamp and or PAYE? If not he could be in serious bother. A call to the local Inland Revenue office will let you know.
A tribunal is not like a court of law, it's very relaxed and informal. The tribunal will help you a lot. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau is also quite knowlegable in this stuff too.
Don't let bullies get away with it.
Sorry if my answer is a bit fragmented, I've added comments as I've gone along. Good luck with the new position though.
I do employ almost 100 people and have had a lot of experience with the Employment Tribunals and with minimum wage legislation. If you want to pm me rather to talk on here, please do so, I'll try to be of assistance.
I'll just point out a few ways of causing this person(s) a few problems.
If you have a contract of employment (after 3 months they have to unless you're self employed). Then unless it is stated that they can withold payment and it is a 'express written term of your employment' then he can't do it. If you are an employee there must be a time recording for pay method? And a specified rate that you work for. They may be in breach of any point of these laws.
Assuming you're self employed, then you supply him an invoice for work done. Is there a written agreement / service agreement with a contracted £ per hour. If you can prove you have worked the hours (log book / booking form etc) then you can sue him for a breach of contract.
A visit from the minimum wage people is in order if he has no records or, has records but pays a lower amount than £4.50 per hour to you. If you are employed, do you get a payslip? If so deductions etc will have to be shown. If employed with no payslip, then is he paying your NI stamp and or PAYE? If not he could be in serious bother. A call to the local Inland Revenue office will let you know.
A tribunal is not like a court of law, it's very relaxed and informal. The tribunal will help you a lot. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau is also quite knowlegable in this stuff too.
Don't let bullies get away with it.
Sorry if my answer is a bit fragmented, I've added comments as I've gone along. Good luck with the new position though.
Not so N, but still FG
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Happyeater, I am glad that, as a consumer of Employment Tribunal services, you have found them to be informal and straightforward. They were always supposed to be like that, but in my experience, regrettably, they rarely are. Having said that, no one with the wit to become a flying instructor ought to feel intimidated by the Tribunal process, as it ain't, as we say, physicus missilis.
PS: There is a small error in Happyeater's posting on the contract of employment point. The employer is obliged to provide a written statement of particulars of employment (not necessarily a full contract) within two months of the commencement of employment. The brief summary of the law on deductions from pay is not quite accurate either, but here is not the place to go into detail on that, and the gist of what Happyeater says is correct.
PS: There is a small error in Happyeater's posting on the contract of employment point. The employer is obliged to provide a written statement of particulars of employment (not necessarily a full contract) within two months of the commencement of employment. The brief summary of the law on deductions from pay is not quite accurate either, but here is not the place to go into detail on that, and the gist of what Happyeater says is correct.
Last edited by FNG; 25th Jul 2004 at 08:59.
Beacon Outbound
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Amir, who in his profile claims to be an excellent pilot, registered on PPRuNe today and flies a C150 from Elstree, wrote:
They stand out alright, but for the right reasons?
an excellent establishment with outstanding aircraft
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'with outstanding aircraft '
Yea, 'out standing' in the middle of the runway minus nosegear
Yea, outstanding in the fact that they can 'mate' with other aircraft on the taxiway
C-I-M
Yea, 'out standing' in the middle of the runway minus nosegear
Yea, outstanding in the fact that they can 'mate' with other aircraft on the taxiway
C-I-M
