Your first week?
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Bastards its no wonder FI's will bugga off at the drop of a hat.
****e wages
Treated like ****e.
No backup.
Hassels.
Shafted without any warning.
And thats for the peeps who really love the job.
Stick with it FFF. By the sounds of it you need to watch your back with this CFI.
Welcome to the brutal world of instructing.
MJ
****e wages
Treated like ****e.
No backup.
Hassels.
Shafted without any warning.
And thats for the peeps who really love the job.
Stick with it FFF. By the sounds of it you need to watch your back with this CFI.
Welcome to the brutal world of instructing.
MJ
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Your story sounds very demoralising FFF. OK, maybe that wasn't the intention of your original post, but as a wannabe reading this it really does put me off....
Hope things pick up for you.
Hope things pick up for you.
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FFF I think as people say it starts slow but builds up. Eventually you convert trial lessons into students (the rule at our club seems to be about 1 in 20). Everyone then selects their favourite weekly slot 8.00am saturday, 4pm sunday or whatever then they get upset when you take timeoff.
The other thing is, within a year you will be the old hand because everyone else will have Jet jobs. But by then you will have hundreds of hours and will be looking for that job yourself because no-one can live on these wages.
I would also keep applyingto the bigger schools. if you are in a place you can hang around you get a lot of walkins. You also pickup a lot of trips from the high hour guys who cant be bothered to wait all day for the 4.00 trip so they give it to you and take the day off. I've often gone in with an empty book and ended up flying 5 trips
BTW how can you teach your girlfriend to fly. I can only imagine that to be a perfect recipie for domestic strife.
Good luck
The other thing is, within a year you will be the old hand because everyone else will have Jet jobs. But by then you will have hundreds of hours and will be looking for that job yourself because no-one can live on these wages.
I would also keep applyingto the bigger schools. if you are in a place you can hang around you get a lot of walkins. You also pickup a lot of trips from the high hour guys who cant be bothered to wait all day for the 4.00 trip so they give it to you and take the day off. I've often gone in with an empty book and ended up flying 5 trips
BTW how can you teach your girlfriend to fly. I can only imagine that to be a perfect recipie for domestic strife.
Good luck
Why do it if it's not fun?
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No Hasell. That was, of course, the first place I asked! I still pop in there regularly, either to fly or to pass the time, and always check up on whether any of their instructors are moving on, but it seems those who are looking for airline jobs from EGLM aren't having much success right now, which means there's no room for me.
FFF
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FFF
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Hi FFF,
Hmm... my instructor left. Back in March/April for commercial work.
Then reading the recent newsletter from the club (got this yesterday through the post). WLAC mention that two new instructors have joined, one being part-time. I flew with one of the new ones in May as part of my checkout.
Hope things pick up for you FFF.
Regards.
Has.
Hmm... my instructor left. Back in March/April for commercial work.
Then reading the recent newsletter from the club (got this yesterday through the post). WLAC mention that two new instructors have joined, one being part-time. I flew with one of the new ones in May as part of my checkout.
Hope things pick up for you FFF.
Regards.
Has.
The Original Whirly
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FFF,
I'll keep my ear to the ground for you.
If it's any consolation, and I'm sure it isn't, my first YEAR helicopter instructing has been a bit like your first week. Luckily I have other work and don't mind too much. And...just been to another school, and looks like things might pick up.
So never give up.
I'll keep my ear to the ground for you.
If it's any consolation, and I'm sure it isn't, my first YEAR helicopter instructing has been a bit like your first week. Luckily I have other work and don't mind too much. And...just been to another school, and looks like things might pick up.
So never give up.
FFF
It's not the same everywhere, try looking around.
It will help if you can differentiate yourself in some way. When I started (I came from a background of gliding instruction so it may have been an easier transition) I went straight for the aerobatic instructor ticket and "specialised" largely in aeros for a while, then tailwheel and ME. You need something to make yourself look attractive (some people need more than others
)
Stick with it but consider your options, life's too short to spend very much of it feeling miserable. Another consideration: you can have 1 months experience three times or you can have 3 months experience.
HFD
It's not the same everywhere, try looking around.
It will help if you can differentiate yourself in some way. When I started (I came from a background of gliding instruction so it may have been an easier transition) I went straight for the aerobatic instructor ticket and "specialised" largely in aeros for a while, then tailwheel and ME. You need something to make yourself look attractive (some people need more than others
)Stick with it but consider your options, life's too short to spend very much of it feeling miserable. Another consideration: you can have 1 months experience three times or you can have 3 months experience.
HFD
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If you can find another job I would advise it, you will get ripped off where you are...your CFI is the most dishonest person I have come across in all of my experience in aviation. He will promise everything but give nothing. Sooner or later he will find some fault with you that will make you grateful for the chance he is giving you. He owes money everywhere, including myself. Do not travel from TR to TC unless you have definately got some work for the day. Not to mention the two accidents in the last year or so.
If it costs you money to go to work don't go. There are other schools you just have to sit on the phone.
PS the 'Archer' is a cherokee 180.
If it costs you money to go to work don't go. There are other schools you just have to sit on the phone.
PS the 'Archer' is a cherokee 180.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Thanks, once again, to all those who have offered advice and support either on this thread or in private messages. I have now left FlyTeam, and have found myself another job, which I start in a couple of weeks. My new school has more aircraft available for basic training than FlyTeam, fewer instructors, and a fuller booking sheet. What's more, they also pay a daily allowance, which should at least cover my rent, if nothing else, if I don't fly at all due to weather or lack of bookings or any other reason, which I didn't get at FlyTeam. I am feeling very positive about this new opportunity, and looking forward to starting.
I thought some PPRuNers might be interested in the story of what happened when I told my current boss that I was quitting. It started off very pleasantly. He was upset that I was leaving just as the aircraft were coming back on-line and bookings picking up - he told me that I had a full weekend booked (the full weekend, from looking at the booking sheet, appeared to be about 2 hours each day) and that if I had stuck around things would soon have picked up, but he thanked me for letting him know.
Then we came to the subject of money. I had previously invoiced him for £116, which is what I'd earned in the 4 weeks I'd been working for him. He asked if I'd like to offset that against what I owed him for my checkouts. I was a little surprised at that, but he was adamant that I had agreed with him that I would pay for my own checkouts.
I had actually done two checkouts at the school, one on the C150 and another on the PA28-180. When he got his calculator out, he figured out that I owed him £191. That means that, after having been with the school for 4 weeks, I had made a net loss of £75.
Some heated words were exchanged at this point. I haven't heard of a school charging its instructors for a checkout before (I know of at least three other schools which certainly don't do this), and no mention had been made of it until I said I was leaving. I know the subject of instructing for free gets discussed from time to time on this forum, but I was being asked to actually pay my school in order to instruct for them!
Of course because there was no written contract at this point, neither of us had any way of backing up our arguments, and I was getting ready to walk out the door and write off the £116 which I was owed as a bad debt. But then the boss relented and agreed that he wouldn't charge me for my checkouts, and he would even pay me for the flying I'd done. However, he had previously agreed to pay me a minimum daily amount for those days when I was in the office but flew for less than around 2 hours - but he now refused to pay that minimum daily amount, and would only pay me for the actual flying time I'd done.
As I said, I was almost ready to walk out with nothing, so when he offered to settle up for my flying time I said yes. Maybe that was a bad move - there were so few days where I'd earned more than the minimum daily amount (just one, in fact) that what he was offering was considerably less than what he actually owed me. But I figured I ought to take what was on offer before he changed his mind. I left with a cheque for £42 - that's £10.50 for each week I worked for him. Possibly even worse than that is that we parted on a bad note, which was never my intention. I generally don't make too many enemies in life, and had certainly not intended to do so at FlyTeam, but the choice was either that, or to pay them for working for them.
This happened a few days ago, and I have taken a bit of time to cool down. But now that I am not so emotional about the incident any more, I'm actually quite glad it's happened, because it has, to me, at least, completely justified my decision to leave and find somewhere else to instruct. My new school is 250 miles away from home, and I will need to find a new place to live, and to leave my family and my girlfriend in London. This was obviously not an easy decision, but as a result of what has happened at FlyTeam I am absolutely convinced that it was the right decision.
A final note for anyone who has read my account and been put off instructing by it - please don't be. I honestly believe that the majority of schools and individuals out there are honest, and that it is only a small number of bad apples that you need to look out for. Whilst I was getting no or very little work at FlyTeam, I had a call from another school who needed me to cover for a sick instructor for a couple of days. After checking with my boss that he didn't need me for those days, and would not be able to give me as much work as the other school, I agreed. Everyone at this school was friendly and helpful, getting me checked out and up-to-speed on a type that I hadn't flown before, helping me find my way around the office, going over student records with me so that I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing, helping me find my way around the local area when a trial lesson wanted to overfly somewhere I hadn't heard of, and, at the end of the two days, paying me exactly the amount of money that was due, in cash, without any further hassle. What's more, I logged nearly three times as much instructing time in two days at this school as I had in four weeks at FlyTeam! From what I see at other schools, I am sure (and I hope that others will back me up) that this is a far more common scenario, and I hope that my bad experience doesn't put anyone off what I'm sure is a rewarding career.
FFF
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I thought some PPRuNers might be interested in the story of what happened when I told my current boss that I was quitting. It started off very pleasantly. He was upset that I was leaving just as the aircraft were coming back on-line and bookings picking up - he told me that I had a full weekend booked (the full weekend, from looking at the booking sheet, appeared to be about 2 hours each day) and that if I had stuck around things would soon have picked up, but he thanked me for letting him know.
Then we came to the subject of money. I had previously invoiced him for £116, which is what I'd earned in the 4 weeks I'd been working for him. He asked if I'd like to offset that against what I owed him for my checkouts. I was a little surprised at that, but he was adamant that I had agreed with him that I would pay for my own checkouts.
I had actually done two checkouts at the school, one on the C150 and another on the PA28-180. When he got his calculator out, he figured out that I owed him £191. That means that, after having been with the school for 4 weeks, I had made a net loss of £75.
Some heated words were exchanged at this point. I haven't heard of a school charging its instructors for a checkout before (I know of at least three other schools which certainly don't do this), and no mention had been made of it until I said I was leaving. I know the subject of instructing for free gets discussed from time to time on this forum, but I was being asked to actually pay my school in order to instruct for them!
Of course because there was no written contract at this point, neither of us had any way of backing up our arguments, and I was getting ready to walk out the door and write off the £116 which I was owed as a bad debt. But then the boss relented and agreed that he wouldn't charge me for my checkouts, and he would even pay me for the flying I'd done. However, he had previously agreed to pay me a minimum daily amount for those days when I was in the office but flew for less than around 2 hours - but he now refused to pay that minimum daily amount, and would only pay me for the actual flying time I'd done.
As I said, I was almost ready to walk out with nothing, so when he offered to settle up for my flying time I said yes. Maybe that was a bad move - there were so few days where I'd earned more than the minimum daily amount (just one, in fact) that what he was offering was considerably less than what he actually owed me. But I figured I ought to take what was on offer before he changed his mind. I left with a cheque for £42 - that's £10.50 for each week I worked for him. Possibly even worse than that is that we parted on a bad note, which was never my intention. I generally don't make too many enemies in life, and had certainly not intended to do so at FlyTeam, but the choice was either that, or to pay them for working for them.
This happened a few days ago, and I have taken a bit of time to cool down. But now that I am not so emotional about the incident any more, I'm actually quite glad it's happened, because it has, to me, at least, completely justified my decision to leave and find somewhere else to instruct. My new school is 250 miles away from home, and I will need to find a new place to live, and to leave my family and my girlfriend in London. This was obviously not an easy decision, but as a result of what has happened at FlyTeam I am absolutely convinced that it was the right decision.
A final note for anyone who has read my account and been put off instructing by it - please don't be. I honestly believe that the majority of schools and individuals out there are honest, and that it is only a small number of bad apples that you need to look out for. Whilst I was getting no or very little work at FlyTeam, I had a call from another school who needed me to cover for a sick instructor for a couple of days. After checking with my boss that he didn't need me for those days, and would not be able to give me as much work as the other school, I agreed. Everyone at this school was friendly and helpful, getting me checked out and up-to-speed on a type that I hadn't flown before, helping me find my way around the office, going over student records with me so that I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing, helping me find my way around the local area when a trial lesson wanted to overfly somewhere I hadn't heard of, and, at the end of the two days, paying me exactly the amount of money that was due, in cash, without any further hassle. What's more, I logged nearly three times as much instructing time in two days at this school as I had in four weeks at FlyTeam! From what I see at other schools, I am sure (and I hope that others will back me up) that this is a far more common scenario, and I hope that my bad experience doesn't put anyone off what I'm sure is a rewarding career.
FFF
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Not so N, but still FG
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One of the virtues of employment law is that it leads to an improvement in employment standards: the general standards of employee treatment in offices, shops and factories are far better now than they were 30 years ago, and this is partly attributable to the desire of employers to avoid tribunal claims. Flying schools appear to lie far outside the norm on this. One or more of you junior instructors really needs to send a message out by suing one of these outfits. The working time and minimum wage regulations might afford a means of doing this. FFF, note also that a deduction from pay is generally unlawful if not agreed in writing.
People may reply "We won't get another job if we sue a flying school", but that attitude helps to perpetuate the abuses. AOPA could earn some brownie points by campaigning on this issue and/or by funding a case or two. Or maybe join the T & G.
People may reply "We won't get another job if we sue a flying school", but that attitude helps to perpetuate the abuses. AOPA could earn some brownie points by campaigning on this issue and/or by funding a case or two. Or maybe join the T & G.
The Original Whirly
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FNG,
I think the problem is that most flying instructors are classed as self-employed.
FFF,
Good luck with the new job, sounds far better. Where is it?
I think the problem is that most flying instructors are classed as self-employed.
FFF,
Good luck with the new job, sounds far better.
Where is it?
Not so N, but still FG
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It is doubtful that flying instructors retained by schools are really self employed, even if classed as such by the school (or even by the Revenue). The description given to a working arrangement by the parties thereto is not conclusive of its legal status. Employment Tribunals are used to seeing through the description attached to a relationship and will find it to be one of employment if that is in reality what it is.
In addition, the working time and minimum wage legislation uses the European concept of a "worker", which is not limited to those traditionally classed as employees. The concept covers, for example, freelance peripatetic music teachers, even though they are ostensibly self employed, and could well apply to some flying instructors.
I would be prepared, in a suitable case, to act pro bono for a deserving instructor owed money by a school.
In addition, the working time and minimum wage legislation uses the European concept of a "worker", which is not limited to those traditionally classed as employees. The concept covers, for example, freelance peripatetic music teachers, even though they are ostensibly self employed, and could well apply to some flying instructors.
I would be prepared, in a suitable case, to act pro bono for a deserving instructor owed money by a school.
Last edited by FNG; 12th Jul 2004 at 17:10.
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Well done for the courageous move FFF and the best of luck in your new position. Maybe you could keep us updated with a thread "Your first week? Second time round!"
You seem to be someone who is able to offer a lot of enthusiasm to their chosen school and deserve a lucky break - let's hope this is it.
GOOD LUCK
You seem to be someone who is able to offer a lot of enthusiasm to their chosen school and deserve a lucky break - let's hope this is it.
GOOD LUCK
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Oh Dear
Why does FFF's experience come as no real suprise to me. The way this guy treats people is getting worse. It's not only his employees that get treated this way but sometimes his customers as well. As a ex customer of the organisation I have experienced this first hand from the man.
C-I-M
Why does FFF's experience come as no real suprise to me. The way this guy treats people is getting worse. It's not only his employees that get treated this way but sometimes his customers as well. As a ex customer of the organisation I have experienced this first hand from the man.
C-I-M
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FFF
I think you did well to walk out with any money! I left a flying school at Cranfield a few years ago, and the owner went through the phone bill and deducted personal calls from what he owed me. He also held back money from me for people who owed him money from when I had flown with them, despite the fact that I was the only instructor there on weekdays, I wrote all the invoices, answered the phone, booked the aircraft, flew them for maintenance as reqd, briefed the students, took the flak from voucher holders who were trying to fly 6 months and one day after buying a voucher,and spent 12 to 14 hours a day working for him - all for £12 ph flight pay. Thinking about it he was a right C**t.
Ps it wasn't flyteam, who in my time there were generally well regarded
Moley
I think you did well to walk out with any money! I left a flying school at Cranfield a few years ago, and the owner went through the phone bill and deducted personal calls from what he owed me. He also held back money from me for people who owed him money from when I had flown with them, despite the fact that I was the only instructor there on weekdays, I wrote all the invoices, answered the phone, booked the aircraft, flew them for maintenance as reqd, briefed the students, took the flak from voucher holders who were trying to fly 6 months and one day after buying a voucher,and spent 12 to 14 hours a day working for him - all for £12 ph flight pay. Thinking about it he was a right C**t.
Ps it wasn't flyteam, who in my time there were generally well regarded
Moley
Not so N, but still FG
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Abuses of that kind will continue until you guys stand up to these people. Complaining on websites is unlikely to effect change. My offer above remains open. Pro bono means free, by the way.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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FNG, That's a very kind offer, and if there was more money involved I would have considered taking you up on it. As it is, I am owed £74, and I value my spare time highly enough that I suspect the effort I would have to put in to getting such a small sum of money wouldn't be worth it.
As CIM says, many customers are treated less-than-ideally (my girlfriend, for example, was not told that her aircraft was in maintenance when she booked her second lesson). I suspect that this may explain why the bookings sheets had so many gaps in them. They are probably one of the cheapest schools around, but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Cloud69, "Your first week? Second time round!" - I like it! I suspect my belongings will still be boxes scattered around my new house after my second first week, and I may not be on-line, so I can't promise, but I'll give it a go if I am on-line and have some spare time!
FFF
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As CIM says, many customers are treated less-than-ideally (my girlfriend, for example, was not told that her aircraft was in maintenance when she booked her second lesson). I suspect that this may explain why the bookings sheets had so many gaps in them. They are probably one of the cheapest schools around, but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Cloud69, "Your first week? Second time round!" - I like it! I suspect my belongings will still be boxes scattered around my new house after my second first week, and I may not be on-line, so I can't promise, but I'll give it a go if I am on-line and have some spare time!
FFF
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