Standard of instruction
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Standard of instruction
This was pulled from the private flying forum and I'm not sure what to make of it !.
I took an instructor flying a couple of weeks ago who had never landed on grass. He as turned out had been telling his students that grass was much to dangerous for PA28s and such like.
Is it a p1$$ take ? or are there people with instructors ratings who think and teach this sort of thing ?
I took an instructor flying a couple of weeks ago who had never landed on grass. He as turned out had been telling his students that grass was much to dangerous for PA28s and such like.
Is it a p1$$ take ? or are there people with instructors ratings who think and teach this sort of thing ?
Regrettably, it is probably true. A chap from another club told me that a FI(R) who applied to his club for work "Was scared of teaching people to land"!
He didn't get the job!!
MInd you, I might think twice about letting just anyone land a long-prop Cherokee 180 at a certain grass aerodrome not a million miles from here - it has a very bumpy surface inded.
He didn't get the job!!
MInd you, I might think twice about letting just anyone land a long-prop Cherokee 180 at a certain grass aerodrome not a million miles from here - it has a very bumpy surface inded.
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Wonder if its the same instructor who has been checking out my mate at a well know hard runway for renting a PA28-140 and insists approaches at 80 - but KNOTS, not mph. Guess what.. my mate's sudddenly having problems with his landings, even on the tarmac.
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I heard an interesting one the other day. "You must turn finals at 800ft and then close the throttle when the landing is assured
. . when I asked why, he said in case of engine failure?
When i asked if he had ever had an engine failure on finals i could tell he wasnt amused!
. . when I asked why, he said in case of engine failure?
When i asked if he had ever had an engine failure on finals i could tell he wasnt amused!
The Original Whirly
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Irv,
That reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago at Welshpool (when it was under the old managment, not the present ones). An instructor took out their PA28, and on final for the 800m hard runway he realised he couldn't remember the approach speed. He used 80kts for safety, and....well, I was told the story when I asked about the large hole in the hedge at the end of the runway!
That reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago at Welshpool (when it was under the old managment, not the present ones). An instructor took out their PA28, and on final for the 800m hard runway he realised he couldn't remember the approach speed. He used 80kts for safety, and....well, I was told the story when I asked about the large hole in the hedge at the end of the runway!
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Whatunion should read Catch 22.
That is unfortunate Whirly, but scary to think that anyone of the sort of experience to be instructing cannot cope with the situation! What if he found himself in my situation in one of our PA-28s, where the ASI was under-reading? OK, I could land it fast at Bournemouth and accept the long float, but don't we teach our students to fly the attitude (how do you think I knew it was underreading)? Don't we get them to practice circuits with no speed reference, just using the RPM, the 'picture' and the feel?
Even on an R22 a pitot blockage must be an issue of concern.
That is unfortunate Whirly, but scary to think that anyone of the sort of experience to be instructing cannot cope with the situation! What if he found himself in my situation in one of our PA-28s, where the ASI was under-reading? OK, I could land it fast at Bournemouth and accept the long float, but don't we teach our students to fly the attitude (how do you think I knew it was underreading)? Don't we get them to practice circuits with no speed reference, just using the RPM, the 'picture' and the feel?
Even on an R22 a pitot blockage must be an issue of concern.
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he realised he couldn't remember the approach speed.
Wonder how many pilots' confidence levels are going down the drain due to this '80 knotter'? Wonder how many will screw up badly on their next visit to grass??
What sort of incompetent fool teaches 80 kts as the approach speed for a PA28-140? No wonder some people have difficulty landing!
We use a full-flap approach speed of 70mph for a Cherokee 140C and 65kts for a Warrior (yes - it should be 63 but people find it easier to keep the needle midway between 60 and 70! I'll allow them a 2 kt error!). Both are valid for max weight; no adding 5 kts for Mum, no adding 5 kts 'because of the wind' - just use the correct figures and landing is a doddle!
We use a full-flap approach speed of 70mph for a Cherokee 140C and 65kts for a Warrior (yes - it should be 63 but people find it easier to keep the needle midway between 60 and 70! I'll allow them a 2 kt error!). Both are valid for max weight; no adding 5 kts for Mum, no adding 5 kts 'because of the wind' - just use the correct figures and landing is a doddle!
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I use 70 kts and 500 ft decent for just about all aircraft and that works guite fine... gives me the 5 kt "safety" margine to the 65 (student decides to pull too much, etc.) and keeps me (or student) from being too fast.... and adjusting with throttle or applying/releasing pressure on control wheel/stick as needed.
Some instructors tell the students certain RPM for downwind, then another number for base, and a third for final.
That doesn't always work if you're too high or too low!! Give me 70 kts and 500 ft !
Westy
Some instructors tell the students certain RPM for downwind, then another number for base, and a third for final.
That doesn't always work if you're too high or too low!! Give me 70 kts and 500 ft !Westy
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Surely its not the approach speed that matters but your speed at the threshold. You can fly the approach at any speed you want (within reason) as long as you are able to reduce speed to the correct book figure by the time you reach the threshold. Although i wouldnt teach a student to fly an 80kt final approach in a PA28 it does have its advantages,- less drift, not taking forever and annoying ATC etc.
The average student will find it hard enough to maintain an accurate approach speed without further complicating matters with a late change of IAS and trim. No - fly the correct POH approach speed in trim all the way to the flare. There won't then be any substantial out-of-trim forces to cope with when finessing the flare.
I fly an instrument approach clean at the normal cruise speed, but decelerate and configure from DH/MDH (500/600 ft these days as I don't need an IR - an IMC rating is entirely adequate) to achieve the correct POH approach speed from about 3-400 ft.
I fly an instrument approach clean at the normal cruise speed, but decelerate and configure from DH/MDH (500/600 ft these days as I don't need an IR - an IMC rating is entirely adequate) to achieve the correct POH approach speed from about 3-400 ft.
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Icarus
Helicopter pilots call it a gate approach, but I find it takes some skill and experience to do right fixed-wing. Handy when I am in a hurry to get on the ground, but a nice, consistent circuit helps students approach and land well.
Helicopter pilots call it a gate approach, but I find it takes some skill and experience to do right fixed-wing. Handy when I am in a hurry to get on the ground, but a nice, consistent circuit helps students approach and land well.
The hole in the hedge at the end of the Welshpool runway was caused by a number of overruns over the years. Most notably one where a student on early solo floated a bit and in panic stamped down very hard on the rudder pedals - imitating how one would press down on a car brake. Obviously to no effect - he trundled into the hedge at the end, throttle at idle at about 20kts. An ingrained motor response took over with the adrenalin and he simply never applied the brakes and froze.
In the second notable hedge trimming incident an instructor on a touch and go with a student suffered an engine failure on applying power. For the sake of another 3m he would have stopped before the hedge... well handled though.
Such legendary tales of instructors forgetting approach speeds should be treated with a bag of salt. How could you? You have to have a checkride + all the aircraft have the colour coded ASI's + all your small Pipers and Cessnas approach at 65kts ish.
Cheers
WWW
In the second notable hedge trimming incident an instructor on a touch and go with a student suffered an engine failure on applying power. For the sake of another 3m he would have stopped before the hedge... well handled though.
Such legendary tales of instructors forgetting approach speeds should be treated with a bag of salt. How could you? You have to have a checkride + all the aircraft have the colour coded ASI's + all your small Pipers and Cessnas approach at 65kts ish.
Cheers
WWW
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just finished reading catch 22 so i will give you this one to ponder on.
when your reading this just remember the post someone made about the fact that i havnt instructed for 14 years and only instructors should make comments about teaching!
i took over a position at a well known flying school were the cfi was sacked for being totally incompetent. now here was a man who had been flying for years with around 15,000 hours but without a shadow of doubt was the worst instructor ( and i have come across many in 8 different schools) i have ever heard of, or come across.
he never did any form of preflight check, and carried around 10 cans of oil, loose in the back of the aircraft.(c150). he instructed down to 200 ft cloud bases in any vis he could get away with. the fire service ran a book from engine start from time to airbourne, the record being 2 minutes as he never did any mag checks etc. he 'pencilled' engine log books so that a/c magically always had done 50 hours the evening before his day off and were put on check the next day.
average time to ppl was around 80 hours for those who stuck it out, they did about 20 hours before he let them fly!
he took his case to the industrial tribunal and this is the best part. here are a part of two statements read out by two different students in court.
1. after 23 flying lessons i found out that the aircraft was fitted with flaps. i found this out beacuse another student who flew with a different instructor told me about them.
2. after 29 lessons i said to my instructor" what speed should i fly the approach at. He replied " what speed do you back your car into your garage" I do not know, i just gauge it" replied the student. "well, theres your answer", replied the instructor.
so there you have it gentlemen, your all wrong, you dont need to know any speeds to fly an a/c, you just point it. please dont argue with this because this man had a valid instructors rating and as such was an expert in these matters and had more experience than many of you have.
ps not all asi's have colour coding
when your reading this just remember the post someone made about the fact that i havnt instructed for 14 years and only instructors should make comments about teaching!
i took over a position at a well known flying school were the cfi was sacked for being totally incompetent. now here was a man who had been flying for years with around 15,000 hours but without a shadow of doubt was the worst instructor ( and i have come across many in 8 different schools) i have ever heard of, or come across.
he never did any form of preflight check, and carried around 10 cans of oil, loose in the back of the aircraft.(c150). he instructed down to 200 ft cloud bases in any vis he could get away with. the fire service ran a book from engine start from time to airbourne, the record being 2 minutes as he never did any mag checks etc. he 'pencilled' engine log books so that a/c magically always had done 50 hours the evening before his day off and were put on check the next day.
average time to ppl was around 80 hours for those who stuck it out, they did about 20 hours before he let them fly!
he took his case to the industrial tribunal and this is the best part. here are a part of two statements read out by two different students in court.
1. after 23 flying lessons i found out that the aircraft was fitted with flaps. i found this out beacuse another student who flew with a different instructor told me about them.
2. after 29 lessons i said to my instructor" what speed should i fly the approach at. He replied " what speed do you back your car into your garage" I do not know, i just gauge it" replied the student. "well, theres your answer", replied the instructor.
so there you have it gentlemen, your all wrong, you dont need to know any speeds to fly an a/c, you just point it. please dont argue with this because this man had a valid instructors rating and as such was an expert in these matters and had more experience than many of you have.
ps not all asi's have colour coding
Last edited by whatunion; 14th Jun 2004 at 19:45.
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whatunion:
Do you know the result? -it wouldn't actually surprise me if he won even after that!
ps: Colour coded ASIs - I'd bet a lot of money that the ASI I mentioned was colour-coded!
he took his case to the industrial tribunal
ps: Colour coded ASIs - I'd bet a lot of money that the ASI I mentioned was colour-coded!
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irv
he actually won!!!!! yes he won because he hadnt been dismissed properly. but the beak said he had contributed to his own dismissal so the award was halfed.
interesting thing was, the beak said,
" i accept that an experienced flyer does not have to do a preflight inspection before flying" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps icarus
any speed on the approach within reason.????????????
not really for ab initio training, besides there should always be a stabilisation point were if speed and height are not correct the approach should be terminated into a go around.
he actually won!!!!! yes he won because he hadnt been dismissed properly. but the beak said he had contributed to his own dismissal so the award was halfed.
interesting thing was, the beak said,
" i accept that an experienced flyer does not have to do a preflight inspection before flying" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps icarus
any speed on the approach within reason.????????????
not really for ab initio training, besides there should always be a stabilisation point were if speed and height are not correct the approach should be terminated into a go around.
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i was trying to differentiate between approach speed and Vat. i realise that it is not a good idea for low time students to be taught late changes in speed and configuration. But an approach speed of 65kt is not always suitable if you have been given a straight in approach from 10miles. Its a question of at what distance(height) do you get the aircraft in the landing configuration (full flap, 65 kt). And although students should be taught the standard approach at first is it not also a good idea to teach non-standard, faster approaches aswell in case they ever find themselves needing to land in a hurry?