spinning
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Any Comments..?
All my ratings are FAA, and the only spin training I HAD to take was for the Instructor rating (presumably in case a ham-fisted student really screws up!). Canadian PPL's must have spin training, but yet the number of licenced pilot spin fatalities in Canada is higher than in the US..?
All my ratings are FAA, and the only spin training I HAD to take was for the Instructor rating (presumably in case a ham-fisted student really screws up!). Canadian PPL's must have spin training, but yet the number of licenced pilot spin fatalities in Canada is higher than in the US..?
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Actually, spinning has recently been removed from the Canadian PPL syllabus. Spins are no longer required on the Canadian PPL flight test. There is much more emphasis on teaching full power and turning stalls, while spins are still demonstrated by instructors and practiced by students. Transport Canada has published a sizeable pamphlet entitled "Stall / Spin awareness"---Presumably with the thought that by teaching more stall variations, the spin should never be encountered by the student. Spins are still required on the CPL flight test in Canada.
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Okay, 3 points I think,
1/ Nishko, you're right about respecting the a/c, but I feel that everybody can lose concentration or attention momemtarily. It's like when I put a student into a spiral dive saying that I'm going into a steep turn but forgetting to put put on extra power, forgetting to increase the back pressure and overbanking. They begin to look at me with that "but I'll never do that when I have a licence" face!! I feel its healthier to except we are human and acknowledge that sometimes we will screw up than blindly be expected to be this perfect non-mistake making pilot that doesn't exist!
2/Back when I did my PPL I asked to see a spin at the advice of a friend(cow!!). I did a few and learnt the recovery technique. However, what I think I most took away from that day was a healthy respect for an area of the flight envelope I did not want to go back to! More memorable than the recovery I would no doubt have forgotten/been unable to carry out in the heat of an inadvertant spin.
3/ Third point is one I'm sure you've all experienced. Couple of weeks ago simple check out for a new club member who had been taught on Warriers and came to fly our Tomahawks. He had flown Tom's before but as you can probably guess during the stall instinctively tried to pick up that wing with the bloody aileron. Now as I said he had been flying Toms before so is this an accident waiting to happen or an accident were making happen by putting ourselves in that position. Does anyone have the actual statistics to say when most spinning accidents happen?
1/ Nishko, you're right about respecting the a/c, but I feel that everybody can lose concentration or attention momemtarily. It's like when I put a student into a spiral dive saying that I'm going into a steep turn but forgetting to put put on extra power, forgetting to increase the back pressure and overbanking. They begin to look at me with that "but I'll never do that when I have a licence" face!! I feel its healthier to except we are human and acknowledge that sometimes we will screw up than blindly be expected to be this perfect non-mistake making pilot that doesn't exist!
2/Back when I did my PPL I asked to see a spin at the advice of a friend(cow!!). I did a few and learnt the recovery technique. However, what I think I most took away from that day was a healthy respect for an area of the flight envelope I did not want to go back to! More memorable than the recovery I would no doubt have forgotten/been unable to carry out in the heat of an inadvertant spin.
3/ Third point is one I'm sure you've all experienced. Couple of weeks ago simple check out for a new club member who had been taught on Warriers and came to fly our Tomahawks. He had flown Tom's before but as you can probably guess during the stall instinctively tried to pick up that wing with the bloody aileron. Now as I said he had been flying Toms before so is this an accident waiting to happen or an accident were making happen by putting ourselves in that position. Does anyone have the actual statistics to say when most spinning accidents happen?
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Hi, I didn't mean to suggest that everyone is immune to an occasional lapse in concentration, but meant to imply that I would like to see a little more instructional effort going towards improving airmanship and learning how to avoid the less predictable areas of the envelope. I have no argument with the concept of recovery training just as long as it is balanced by a similar amount of avoidance training!
I believe that the essence of learning is very closely linked to that of experience, and therefore pilots of all kinds should be safely exposed to the greatest amount of diversity possible, so increasing experience, and awareness.
Basically, there are still too many stall/spin related accidents, and that is a shame in this age of better understanding.
Nish
I believe that the essence of learning is very closely linked to that of experience, and therefore pilots of all kinds should be safely exposed to the greatest amount of diversity possible, so increasing experience, and awareness.
Basically, there are still too many stall/spin related accidents, and that is a shame in this age of better understanding.
Nish
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There are still many stall/spin accidents
There are also still many CFIT accidents by VFR PPL's in IMC.
As well as Fuel Exhaustion accidents.
And stuffed up landings and approaches.
A very wise man once said "Aviation is as safe as you (the PIC) make it!"
Some people I know really want to be the best pilots they can, they want to control their aircraft as well and as precisely as possible. These guys usually take extra training (e.g. spin training) once they have their licences.
Others see the aircraft as a tool, or as a car that can fly. They may not pursue extra training because that is not necessarily where their interests lie.
Neither is definitively safer - it depends on the inividual.
To quote another hackneyed phrase "The aircraft will never have an accident unless the PIC directs it too"
It depends on the bloke up the pointy end of the aircraft - no amount of training will make some pilots safe.
Grade 3
There are also still many CFIT accidents by VFR PPL's in IMC.
As well as Fuel Exhaustion accidents.
And stuffed up landings and approaches.
A very wise man once said "Aviation is as safe as you (the PIC) make it!"
Some people I know really want to be the best pilots they can, they want to control their aircraft as well and as precisely as possible. These guys usually take extra training (e.g. spin training) once they have their licences.
Others see the aircraft as a tool, or as a car that can fly. They may not pursue extra training because that is not necessarily where their interests lie.
Neither is definitively safer - it depends on the inividual.
To quote another hackneyed phrase "The aircraft will never have an accident unless the PIC directs it too"
It depends on the bloke up the pointy end of the aircraft - no amount of training will make some pilots safe.
Grade 3
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Wheelon-wheeloff,
Your comment on the guy converting to Tomahawks is exactly what scares me about the present situation.
......"during the stall instinctively tried to pick up that wing with the bloody aileron"...
There is a generation of pilots being taught - or being allowed to develop - the wrong insticts.
I hate to say this, but a lot of young(er) instructors don't know any better.
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TwinComm
Your comment on the guy converting to Tomahawks is exactly what scares me about the present situation.
......"during the stall instinctively tried to pick up that wing with the bloody aileron"...
There is a generation of pilots being taught - or being allowed to develop - the wrong insticts.
I hate to say this, but a lot of young(er) instructors don't know any better.
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TwinComm
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I have done a lot of spinning as a flight test observer, I can't say I've always enjoyed it but it is a beneficial exercise.
When I turned 400hrs in other stuff into a light aircraft PPL early this year the CAA insisted I did 2 hrs stall and spin awareness (11 hours of spinning and more stalling than I can count in the logbook didn't matter apparently) - I told the school that whatever they had planned we were going to do 2 hours spinning.
IMO every pilot in training should see a spin and execute a recovery - if only to stop them playing silly buggers near the stall. On the other hand, too many PPLs don't regularly practice stalls anyway, and we shouldn't be frightening them off doing this.
At the point of stall incidentally, many aircraft don't have the control authority to enter a spin - it's large control inputs at about Vs+5kn that are more likely to end in tears.
I think WW makes a valid point about type conversions. Surely anybody converting to a new type should have read the POH and all it's handling advice first, if they haven't surely an instructor is being unprofessional in flying them and signing them off. Next think you know people will be flying aircraft without checking the technical logs.
G
When I turned 400hrs in other stuff into a light aircraft PPL early this year the CAA insisted I did 2 hrs stall and spin awareness (11 hours of spinning and more stalling than I can count in the logbook didn't matter apparently) - I told the school that whatever they had planned we were going to do 2 hours spinning.
IMO every pilot in training should see a spin and execute a recovery - if only to stop them playing silly buggers near the stall. On the other hand, too many PPLs don't regularly practice stalls anyway, and we shouldn't be frightening them off doing this.
At the point of stall incidentally, many aircraft don't have the control authority to enter a spin - it's large control inputs at about Vs+5kn that are more likely to end in tears.
I think WW makes a valid point about type conversions. Surely anybody converting to a new type should have read the POH and all it's handling advice first, if they haven't surely an instructor is being unprofessional in flying them and signing them off. Next think you know people will be flying aircraft without checking the technical logs.
G
