Dump the IMC
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Dump the IMC
What do you think of these thoughts on the IMC rating?
1. It should be more restrictive, ie 'A get you home safely if you get caught out by the weather rating', and not a rating which could be used by an inexperienced pilot to fly point to point in IMC in a basic aircraft.
2. Should be taught by instructors holding IRs, ie instructors who have knowledge above and beyond that limited level required of the IMC.
At present the standards of pilots who hold the rating vary greatly and so must the quality of the training given to them in the first place.
1. It should be more restrictive, ie 'A get you home safely if you get caught out by the weather rating', and not a rating which could be used by an inexperienced pilot to fly point to point in IMC in a basic aircraft.
2. Should be taught by instructors holding IRs, ie instructors who have knowledge above and beyond that limited level required of the IMC.
At present the standards of pilots who hold the rating vary greatly and so must the quality of the training given to them in the first place.
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My thoughts are that any instrument training is better than no instrument training. If instrument conditions are accidentally encountered by a pilot with no instrument training (sorry, my view is that the basic PPL instrument training counts for little) it may well be a terminal learning experience. Whilst the IMC is a very basic form of instrument training, it is nevertheless instrument training and it may well save the life of somebody who would otherwise not bother with a full instrument rating.
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The focus of flight training should shift towards preparation that avoids "getting caught out by the weather" in the first place.
Instrument flying is something that requires constant practice. There are too many IMC holders who think that having a rating which was last tested up to 2 years previously is some form of insurance.
If the first time they get to practice is when they bumble into bad weather as a result of poor planning then God help all of us.
I recently flew with one such individual who was proud of his IMC. On went the foggles to simulate his entry into bad weather. Not only did he have no idea of his safety altitude, altimeter setting procedures, or controlled airspace above him, but the subsequent ILS approach was the worst bit of flying I have ever seen. The guy was so far behind the Aircraft it was simply dangerous.
Keep the IMC by all means but increase the test frequency, and practice in realistic conditions ie turbulence and precipitation. Real IMC is nothing like the foggles experince on a smooth VFR day.
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TwinComm
Instrument flying is something that requires constant practice. There are too many IMC holders who think that having a rating which was last tested up to 2 years previously is some form of insurance.
If the first time they get to practice is when they bumble into bad weather as a result of poor planning then God help all of us.
I recently flew with one such individual who was proud of his IMC. On went the foggles to simulate his entry into bad weather. Not only did he have no idea of his safety altitude, altimeter setting procedures, or controlled airspace above him, but the subsequent ILS approach was the worst bit of flying I have ever seen. The guy was so far behind the Aircraft it was simply dangerous.
Keep the IMC by all means but increase the test frequency, and practice in realistic conditions ie turbulence and precipitation. Real IMC is nothing like the foggles experince on a smooth VFR day.
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TwinComm
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Yes TWINCOMM but would he have put on a better performance if he had not undertaken IMC training at all? I suggest not. I would also suggest that if the IMC rating was not available, that same individual would probably not have bothered to undertake IR training given that it would appear that he had not kept his IMC current in any event. Im sure that anybody with only say 100 hrs TT has experienced the weather close in and flown into IMC! The point is that your pilot with a lapsed IMC is probably safer than he/she would have been if he/she had not undertaken the IMC training albeit two years previous!
I'm expecting a slapping soon for daring to post in the instructors forum again!
I'm expecting a slapping soon for daring to post in the instructors forum again!
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Does the tragic accident at Biggin ring any bells.
Guy with a lapsed IMC on the way back from France.ATC advised him of the wx and previous attempts and subsequent diversion to Gatwick (I believe)of jet aircraft.
The guys ignorance killed himself and all aboard.The wx was well out of his limits even if his IMC was current.
The fire crew found them a mile from the threshold -wrong pressure setting had been set.
An IMC rating needs to be kept current and practised in real conditions if it is to be used.
Guy with a lapsed IMC on the way back from France.ATC advised him of the wx and previous attempts and subsequent diversion to Gatwick (I believe)of jet aircraft.
The guys ignorance killed himself and all aboard.The wx was well out of his limits even if his IMC was current.
The fire crew found them a mile from the threshold -wrong pressure setting had been set.
An IMC rating needs to be kept current and practised in real conditions if it is to be used.
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I don't normally add my opinion to threads like this but......no matter how much training, no matter what rating they achieve, no matter what aircraft they are flying......an instructor cannot teach COMMON SENSE.
I am not aware of the Biggin crash mentioned above, but is that because the pilot had a lapsed IMC or because the pilot was a smart a**e who hadn't the sense to go somewhere else....especially if shown the way by a diverting jet which was, presumably, better equipped and flown by an instrument (current) rated pilot.
The IMC rating is not to blame - the instruction is not to blame - the mind set of the pilot is to blame.
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I am not aware of the Biggin crash mentioned above, but is that because the pilot had a lapsed IMC or because the pilot was a smart a**e who hadn't the sense to go somewhere else....especially if shown the way by a diverting jet which was, presumably, better equipped and flown by an instrument (current) rated pilot.
The IMC rating is not to blame - the instruction is not to blame - the mind set of the pilot is to blame.
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Bear cub makes a good point and i think that the IMC is a good thing ,but two things bother me one is that to much of the training is done with screens and not enough in "real IMC"and second why oh why are so meny instructors teaching this QFE thing......just as the workload reaches its peak on a NDB app we ask the guy to change the setting on the altimeter its no wonder so meny make mistakes and then he/she has to change it back on the GA.....stupid just stupid.
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Exactly .You cant teach common sense to anyone.
This pilot had a lapsed IMC and was a complete a*se with a LARGE portion of "get home-itus".He obviously thought-yeah i'm alright,I can do this.
Common sense should have said-hang on a moment-
firstly my IMC has lapsed
secondly i'm not current
and i'll be breaking the law
This pilot had a lapsed IMC and was a complete a*se with a LARGE portion of "get home-itus".He obviously thought-yeah i'm alright,I can do this.
Common sense should have said-hang on a moment-
firstly my IMC has lapsed
secondly i'm not current
and i'll be breaking the law
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12 month renewal for the IMC is a good thing.I feel some FTOs don't take the rating seriously enough.
A couple of years back a chap walks into the club to renew his IMC, after not using it for 24 months. He has one trip with a FI who says he is not ready for test. Nevertheless he books a test and fails.One week later he goes to another school up the road, no extra training and passes the test.
The guy is now legal, and someone has said 'yes you're good enough'...we couldn't believe it!
There seems vastly different standards, all that does is devalue the rating, and reduce safety.
Yes you get different standards of PPL but the varation in standards of IMC holders seems greater, this needs to be addressed.
A couple of years back a chap walks into the club to renew his IMC, after not using it for 24 months. He has one trip with a FI who says he is not ready for test. Nevertheless he books a test and fails.One week later he goes to another school up the road, no extra training and passes the test.
The guy is now legal, and someone has said 'yes you're good enough'...we couldn't believe it!
There seems vastly different standards, all that does is devalue the rating, and reduce safety.
Yes you get different standards of PPL but the varation in standards of IMC holders seems greater, this needs to be addressed.
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My view is that the IMC rating has to exist
because the alternative - the single crew instrument rating is effectively (in the UK) an extension of a professional pilot licence. i.e. Its expensive and difficult and time consuming to get and to maintain
(Most airline pilots are letting their single crew IRs lapse as they only need the multi-crew IR.)
Contrast with the US where the IR is much more widely available. Often I hear
people justify this by saying that we have special weather over here and that the
American system wouln't work.
These people dont seem to realise that many of the pilots flying in and out of Heathrow every day have FAA/IRs
I have flown in New Jersey in the winter
and its just the same or slightly worse than the UK - low-cloud, freezing at
the surface throughout the winter.
I sometimes think that us British chaps can
be rather arrogant we know best etc etc
as we fly our American aircraft around the
UK in our own unique style
The CAA, on transition to JAA actually forgot about the poor PPL/IR people and there was no JAA exam for them - correct me
if I'm wrong but aren't they still doing the old BCPL nav sets ?
If we dumped the IMC the IR would need to become cheaper and easier - otherwise accident levels would rise.
As for instructors there is a shortage of them isn't there ? If we added another
10K onto their initial training costs
there would be a reduction in numbers
and a further reduction in PPL new starters ?
Now theres an idea - wouldn't that reduce the risk... Aaaah
Best if we all stayed on the ground
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 23 October 2000).]
because the alternative - the single crew instrument rating is effectively (in the UK) an extension of a professional pilot licence. i.e. Its expensive and difficult and time consuming to get and to maintain
(Most airline pilots are letting their single crew IRs lapse as they only need the multi-crew IR.)
Contrast with the US where the IR is much more widely available. Often I hear
people justify this by saying that we have special weather over here and that the
American system wouln't work.
These people dont seem to realise that many of the pilots flying in and out of Heathrow every day have FAA/IRs
I have flown in New Jersey in the winter
and its just the same or slightly worse than the UK - low-cloud, freezing at
the surface throughout the winter.
I sometimes think that us British chaps can
be rather arrogant we know best etc etc
as we fly our American aircraft around the
UK in our own unique style
The CAA, on transition to JAA actually forgot about the poor PPL/IR people and there was no JAA exam for them - correct me
if I'm wrong but aren't they still doing the old BCPL nav sets ?
If we dumped the IMC the IR would need to become cheaper and easier - otherwise accident levels would rise.
As for instructors there is a shortage of them isn't there ? If we added another
10K onto their initial training costs
there would be a reduction in numbers
and a further reduction in PPL new starters ?
Now theres an idea - wouldn't that reduce the risk... Aaaah
Best if we all stayed on the ground
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 23 October 2000).]
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Don't forget that by doing the rating a PPL is also flying at least a further 15-17 hours with an instructor. That's got to be a contribution to improving their skills post-PPL training. The studes I've been teaching are finding themselves suitably stretched, plus they're broadening their experience. If the rating isn't sold as a mini-IR then they shouldn't get the wrong idea.
BTW, the point made about the PPL/IR is a good one too. There's nothing wrong with putting something like an IR within reasonable reach of the private pilot fraternity. The oversight by JAA is a mistake.
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0 to 2000ft in 10 minutes
BTW, the point made about the PPL/IR is a good one too. There's nothing wrong with putting something like an IR within reasonable reach of the private pilot fraternity. The oversight by JAA is a mistake.
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0 to 2000ft in 10 minutes
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Correct me if i'm wrong but to keep an FAA instrument rating current is it still-6 approaches and 6 hours instrument flying in 6 months(done mine in 1993 and let it lapse,so I dont know if the rules have changed)And from what I remember some of it can be done on a sim.
At least if this is still the case the pilot is more current than following the UK IMC currency requirements.
Remember that a UK CPL automatically has an IMC rating that does not need revalidating,so a pilot could go for longer than 25 months without flying in IMC then 1 day get caught out and still be legal.
At least if this is still the case the pilot is more current than following the UK IMC currency requirements.
Remember that a UK CPL automatically has an IMC rating that does not need revalidating,so a pilot could go for longer than 25 months without flying in IMC then 1 day get caught out and still be legal.
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Can't see the point in dumping it, but I think the most dangerous thing about it is the philosophy that it is there 'to get you out of trouble, but you should never plan to fly IMC '
The only IMC flight you should ever undertake is that which is properly planned.No a low time pilot should not fly point to point, single engine in bad conditions, at an altitude low enough to keep him below all the CAS, that is asking for CFIT. But when proper planning reveals that the weather at the destination of your VFR flight is forecast to be marginal or even definitely IMC ? What is then wrong with properly planning the trip, preparing for the possibility of a hold and procedure at the other end,and no surprises when you get there. Well apparantly that is 'planning' to fly IMC with an IMC rating which apparantly you should never ever do.
Dare I suggest that someone who hae been caught out is already behind the game and probably in the worst possible position to start locating IAF's, working out hold entries, minimums etc
That very well worn phrase " The imc rating is there to get you out of trouble but you should never plan to use it" it probably one of the most misused and irresponsible sayings I've heard in flying and it makes me cringe the number of times I hear it.
That said, properly used, the IMC rating is very useful, and should stay - properly taught.
The only IMC flight you should ever undertake is that which is properly planned.No a low time pilot should not fly point to point, single engine in bad conditions, at an altitude low enough to keep him below all the CAS, that is asking for CFIT. But when proper planning reveals that the weather at the destination of your VFR flight is forecast to be marginal or even definitely IMC ? What is then wrong with properly planning the trip, preparing for the possibility of a hold and procedure at the other end,and no surprises when you get there. Well apparantly that is 'planning' to fly IMC with an IMC rating which apparantly you should never ever do.
Dare I suggest that someone who hae been caught out is already behind the game and probably in the worst possible position to start locating IAF's, working out hold entries, minimums etc
That very well worn phrase " The imc rating is there to get you out of trouble but you should never plan to use it" it probably one of the most misused and irresponsible sayings I've heard in flying and it makes me cringe the number of times I hear it.
That said, properly used, the IMC rating is very useful, and should stay - properly taught.
