Serious wing drop at stall
I do NOT profess to be an 'expert' and am dubious of those who would consider themselves as such. However, the Standard Stall Recovery I advocate is that which I was required to teach for my CFS A2 QFI test assessed by a CFS Exam Wing examiner, to brief at a FI re-validation seminar asessed by the ex-CAA CFE and to teach to a CAA Staff Examiner on my last FI re-validation flight test.
If it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for others, in my opinion - and it's worked fine for my students for the last 15 years.
I guess we're actually in agreement, it's just the wording that differs.
If it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for others, in my opinion - and it's worked fine for my students for the last 15 years.
I guess we're actually in agreement, it's just the wording that differs.
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The 2 methods are being taught on FIC's.
BEagles method was explained to me to be the RAF's method of teaching which is basically unload the plane and the stall shall disappear. Which dates all the way back to the guy that found out that you cure a stall by pushing forward instead of pulling back which was the method before he discovered this fact. I seem to remember he got court martialled for not pulling back,but hey at least he was alive to be court martialled. It works for all types of stall be it low speed, high speed in the turn etc.
The other method of picking the wing up with yaw is also taught along with some more unusual "unusual attitude recovery techniques" which the yanks are all in favour of. I believe it was a factor in the fin coming off the airbus which was caught in wake turb just after sept 11th.
So the method being taught is mainly due to the background of the instructor. If they have any mil training behind them they will unload. US training they will pick the wing up. And home grown will depend on who trained them for there PPL / FIC.
Most staff examiners are ex mil so they will accept both.
Who's right? who cares the full stall is one of the most artifical exercises in the PPL with some examiners making the students hold it in the full stall for 15-20 seconds or until a wing drops and others letting them recover on the buffet.
Until the chief examiner actually expresses an opinion and publishes it. Both methods will be instructed.
Myself personally had to teach the pick the wing up method because thats what the local examiners wanted. So until the examiners get there act together and stick to the party line there is not alot the instructors can do about it.
Its a bit like the instructors who teach point and push instead of power for sink and attitude for speed in light aircraft.
MJ
BEagles method was explained to me to be the RAF's method of teaching which is basically unload the plane and the stall shall disappear. Which dates all the way back to the guy that found out that you cure a stall by pushing forward instead of pulling back which was the method before he discovered this fact. I seem to remember he got court martialled for not pulling back,but hey at least he was alive to be court martialled. It works for all types of stall be it low speed, high speed in the turn etc.
The other method of picking the wing up with yaw is also taught along with some more unusual "unusual attitude recovery techniques" which the yanks are all in favour of. I believe it was a factor in the fin coming off the airbus which was caught in wake turb just after sept 11th.
So the method being taught is mainly due to the background of the instructor. If they have any mil training behind them they will unload. US training they will pick the wing up. And home grown will depend on who trained them for there PPL / FIC.
Most staff examiners are ex mil so they will accept both.
Who's right? who cares the full stall is one of the most artifical exercises in the PPL with some examiners making the students hold it in the full stall for 15-20 seconds or until a wing drops and others letting them recover on the buffet.
Until the chief examiner actually expresses an opinion and publishes it. Both methods will be instructed.
Myself personally had to teach the pick the wing up method because thats what the local examiners wanted. So until the examiners get there act together and stick to the party line there is not alot the instructors can do about it.
Its a bit like the instructors who teach point and push instead of power for sink and attitude for speed in light aircraft.
MJ
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I would have thought that the "correct" method is specified in some CAP or other - everything else is, it seems. Maybe a JAA publication. That ends the argument immediately.
I have always taught it both ways... "this the warning... recover... this is the buffet... recover... this is abusing the aircraft by holding it in the stall, look how benign it is... recover... this is a wing dropping... recover... oh look, we are in a spin now... recover..."
I once had a Japanese student, inherited from another instructor, who claimed to know spin recovery, but when handed the controls of a spinning Aerobat, didn't recover. I ended up taking the aircraft up to 6000 feet, putting it in a spin, and waiting for him to recover it. After six turns, I gave up and did it myself.
"Do you know a standard spin recovery?"
"Ah, yes"
"Hmmm... describe a standard spin recovery."
Silence.
A cultural problem...
BTW, thank you BEagle for laying out your credentials. I shall henceforth genuflect whenever I see your username...
I have always taught it both ways... "this the warning... recover... this is the buffet... recover... this is abusing the aircraft by holding it in the stall, look how benign it is... recover... this is a wing dropping... recover... oh look, we are in a spin now... recover..."
I once had a Japanese student, inherited from another instructor, who claimed to know spin recovery, but when handed the controls of a spinning Aerobat, didn't recover. I ended up taking the aircraft up to 6000 feet, putting it in a spin, and waiting for him to recover it. After six turns, I gave up and did it myself.
"Do you know a standard spin recovery?"
"Ah, yes"
"Hmmm... describe a standard spin recovery."
Silence.
A cultural problem...
BTW, thank you BEagle for laying out your credentials. I shall henceforth genuflect whenever I see your username...
Just throw money 
Re spin recovery, although it wasn't much use for teaching aeros, the T67a was great for teaching manoeuvre stall recovery, decent stall training and basic spin training.
But I was once doing the 'low steady airspeed, high rate of rotation, high descent rate' patter to a student - only to see him gazing fixedly at the left wingtip! In all the spin training I'd ever done, I'd never come across anyone who didn't look straight ahead in the spin!
Re spin recovery, although it wasn't much use for teaching aeros, the T67a was great for teaching manoeuvre stall recovery, decent stall training and basic spin training.
But I was once doing the 'low steady airspeed, high rate of rotation, high descent rate' patter to a student - only to see him gazing fixedly at the left wingtip! In all the spin training I'd ever done, I'd never come across anyone who didn't look straight ahead in the spin!
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BEagle is correct to say that if a wing drops then moving the stick forward will unstall that wing and prevent any spin.....no stall, no spin.
However, I believe that the emphasis is put on using rudder to stop a wing drop because if the student has a burning desire to use the aileron.
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-273,
The Vmc speed is based on the lowest speed at which the rudder can prevent the yaw caused by the operating engine(s) with the failed engine feathered.
Thus as the aircraft is about to depart, the rudder is at maximum deflection.........it's all about yaw.
If the aircraft is banked 5deg towards the live engine, then the amount of rudder required is reduced....secondary effect of roll is yaw. Yes there is the adverse yaw factor but most modern aircraft have other measures to reduce adverse yaw.
However, if with full rudder and having used the ailerons to bank the aircraft 5 deg towards the live engine, the speed is allowed to reduce below Vmc then the aircraft will yaw (and roll) away from the live engine unless power is reduced...........the apparent wing drop is not as a result of that wing being stalled it is simply the secondary effect of yaw which is roll....and you won't enter a spin unless the wing does stall which depends on how close the stall speed and Vmc are.
So basically, Vmc has nothing to do with wing drop at the stall.
Regards,
DFC
However, I believe that the emphasis is put on using rudder to stop a wing drop because if the student has a burning desire to use the aileron.
---
-273,
The Vmc speed is based on the lowest speed at which the rudder can prevent the yaw caused by the operating engine(s) with the failed engine feathered.
Thus as the aircraft is about to depart, the rudder is at maximum deflection.........it's all about yaw.
If the aircraft is banked 5deg towards the live engine, then the amount of rudder required is reduced....secondary effect of roll is yaw. Yes there is the adverse yaw factor but most modern aircraft have other measures to reduce adverse yaw.
However, if with full rudder and having used the ailerons to bank the aircraft 5 deg towards the live engine, the speed is allowed to reduce below Vmc then the aircraft will yaw (and roll) away from the live engine unless power is reduced...........the apparent wing drop is not as a result of that wing being stalled it is simply the secondary effect of yaw which is roll....and you won't enter a spin unless the wing does stall which depends on how close the stall speed and Vmc are.
So basically, Vmc has nothing to do with wing drop at the stall.
Regards,
DFC
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Hi DFC
I am trying not to be rude here but can you please at least read my post before you pass a critique on it.
I am well aware of the difference between Vmc and Stall, and if you read the post I think that you will see this.
The comments I made as stated in my post were an addition to the comments on stalls the final comment was an addition on some weird and personally I feel incorrect and dangerous training that I received on converting my FAA and Canadian ATPLs to a JAA ATPL.
Now if I might be so bold as to correct you on your post on Vmc the speed in the US at least is determined from Max power being developed on the operative engine and the inoperative engine unfeathered (windmilling) as VMc is deemed to be in the worst case scenario, the only time that the engine is feathered in a VMc demo is if autofeather is installed on the engine.
Hope that clears that up.
-273
I am trying not to be rude here but can you please at least read my post before you pass a critique on it.
I am well aware of the difference between Vmc and Stall, and if you read the post I think that you will see this.
The comments I made as stated in my post were an addition to the comments on stalls the final comment was an addition on some weird and personally I feel incorrect and dangerous training that I received on converting my FAA and Canadian ATPLs to a JAA ATPL.
Now if I might be so bold as to correct you on your post on Vmc the speed in the US at least is determined from Max power being developed on the operative engine and the inoperative engine unfeathered (windmilling) as VMc is deemed to be in the worst case scenario, the only time that the engine is feathered in a VMc demo is if autofeather is installed on the engine.
Hope that clears that up.
-273
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Wing drop
I'm glad that at least some people have responded to BEagle's contribution with understanding.
If a wing stalls and drops then the angle of attack of that wing increases further while rolling leading to a wing tip stall. To further increase the angle of attack of the wing tip by using aileron is foolish and simply wrong. The first action must be to pitch forward and unstall the wing whatever the aircraft attitude to the horison. Angle of bank is irrelevent. Rudder is applied only to prevent FURTHER YAW. It does not matter how many engines that you have in this respect, always unstall the wing first. At most, any other actions are simultaneous, are never more important and certainly do not precede any action to reduce the A of A.
It is true that one assesses the INITIAL wing drop during a Cof A flight test to be no more than 20 degrees following the stall and that ailerons should be effective at the critical angle of attack. But, that no way infers that the use of ailerons at the stall is the correct action for recovery. It is an airworthiness control assessment only.
To complain that the wing should drop at all is, with respect, unreasonable. The more stable the aircraft is and therefore resistant to change, perhaps from mishandling, then the more resistant it will be to recovery following mishandling. A double edged sword!
If a wing stalls and drops then the angle of attack of that wing increases further while rolling leading to a wing tip stall. To further increase the angle of attack of the wing tip by using aileron is foolish and simply wrong. The first action must be to pitch forward and unstall the wing whatever the aircraft attitude to the horison. Angle of bank is irrelevent. Rudder is applied only to prevent FURTHER YAW. It does not matter how many engines that you have in this respect, always unstall the wing first. At most, any other actions are simultaneous, are never more important and certainly do not precede any action to reduce the A of A.
It is true that one assesses the INITIAL wing drop during a Cof A flight test to be no more than 20 degrees following the stall and that ailerons should be effective at the critical angle of attack. But, that no way infers that the use of ailerons at the stall is the correct action for recovery. It is an airworthiness control assessment only.
To complain that the wing should drop at all is, with respect, unreasonable. The more stable the aircraft is and therefore resistant to change, perhaps from mishandling, then the more resistant it will be to recovery following mishandling. A double edged sword!
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An interesting discussion however, the original thread referred to aircraft maintenance; the line that sparked the debate was:
"Any tendency for a wing to drop at the stall should be containable primarily with aileron assisted by rudder to within 20 degrees bank"
This is taken from CAP 520 Light Aircraft Maintenance. It is written by a test pilot and describes part of the certification test process.
The method described is not, and never has been a recommended method of stall recovery; SSR has been adequately described in this thread and should be used. Before you conduct air tests for aircraft certification you are required to attend a short course with a CAA test pilot who will explain what is required for certification purposes.
"Any tendency for a wing to drop at the stall should be containable primarily with aileron assisted by rudder to within 20 degrees bank"
This is taken from CAP 520 Light Aircraft Maintenance. It is written by a test pilot and describes part of the certification test process.
The method described is not, and never has been a recommended method of stall recovery; SSR has been adequately described in this thread and should be used. Before you conduct air tests for aircraft certification you are required to attend a short course with a CAA test pilot who will explain what is required for certification purposes.
As Hudson's airplane is in Australia (where the air is different), its relevant to quote from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia's "Flight Instructor's Manual". It is out of print but still referenced by the new, draft Manual of Standards.
"Recovery when the Wing Drops"
Use the standard recovery, ie, simultaneous use of power and forward movement of the control column. In addition rudder must be used to prevent the nose of the aeroplane yawing into the direction of the lowered wing. The ailerons should be held neutral until control is regained, when the wings should be levelled. In aeroplanes where the ailerons remain effective beyond the critical angle, they may be used to regain or maintain lateral level in association with the rudder."
I have rejected airplanes off a production line for unacceptable stall behaviour - back to change the rigging. I've flown in-service airplanes where pilots have complained about their handling and given my opinion that they were acceptable. I've flown in-service aeroplanes where I've wondered how it was certified with a wing-drop like that - it wasn't just one example of the type.
Hudson presumably knows how a typical Cessna behaves, has he sought advice from other pilots who have flown it?
In considering the regulatory requirement you must start with the Type Certificate Data Sheet for that particular aeroplane and go to the original certification standard. Look at the configurations required to be tested. The 15 deg limit on roll doesn not apply to all situations - some simply require that "it shall be possible to recover" - quoting from the old Civil Air Regulations Part 3 here.
"Recovery when the Wing Drops"
Use the standard recovery, ie, simultaneous use of power and forward movement of the control column. In addition rudder must be used to prevent the nose of the aeroplane yawing into the direction of the lowered wing. The ailerons should be held neutral until control is regained, when the wings should be levelled. In aeroplanes where the ailerons remain effective beyond the critical angle, they may be used to regain or maintain lateral level in association with the rudder."
I have rejected airplanes off a production line for unacceptable stall behaviour - back to change the rigging. I've flown in-service airplanes where pilots have complained about their handling and given my opinion that they were acceptable. I've flown in-service aeroplanes where I've wondered how it was certified with a wing-drop like that - it wasn't just one example of the type.
Hudson presumably knows how a typical Cessna behaves, has he sought advice from other pilots who have flown it?
In considering the regulatory requirement you must start with the Type Certificate Data Sheet for that particular aeroplane and go to the original certification standard. Look at the configurations required to be tested. The 15 deg limit on roll doesn not apply to all situations - some simply require that "it shall be possible to recover" - quoting from the old Civil Air Regulations Part 3 here.
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And how does the instructor/pilot assess that anyway?
if they can't control it they moan about it. But moan is as much as they can do with out getting sacked.
The joys of being a FI!!!!!!!!!!!!
MJ
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Djpic.
You say "has he sought advice from other pilots that have flown it".
My initial post was based on C150 aircraft stalling characteristics in general, although I have flown this type and noted a significant wing drop tendency in some. In fact a CAA inspector advised that a 500 ft height loss is normal in a C150 during a full flap power on stall entry and recovery. I would be thoroughly alarmed if this observation was true.
Seeking advice from other pilots who have flown a C150 on what they think, will elicit a wide range of opinions - which is why new instructors in particular, who may have hardly 250 hours in their log books, need reasoned guidance on what constitutes an unacceptable wing drop characteristic.
Regretfully there is no shortage of clapped out Cessna 150's that would never pass a searching no-nonsense airworthiness check by a diligent inspector. Never happens of course. Yet instructors and their students accept these aircraft as the norm, and because that is all they have ever known, happily accept these aircraft if the hiring price is right and the hours are logged.
Unexpected wing drop at point of stall can usually be traced to mis-rigging. This costs time and money to rectify especially if the pilot has the temerity to log the defect officially. As Mad_jock alluded earlier, now we are talking job security!
Perhaps the acid test of such aircraft is would you be perfectly happy to send a student on their first solo, knowing the aircraft possessed a savage wing drop at the stall? A courageous decision Prime Minister...
You say "has he sought advice from other pilots that have flown it".
My initial post was based on C150 aircraft stalling characteristics in general, although I have flown this type and noted a significant wing drop tendency in some. In fact a CAA inspector advised that a 500 ft height loss is normal in a C150 during a full flap power on stall entry and recovery. I would be thoroughly alarmed if this observation was true.
Seeking advice from other pilots who have flown a C150 on what they think, will elicit a wide range of opinions - which is why new instructors in particular, who may have hardly 250 hours in their log books, need reasoned guidance on what constitutes an unacceptable wing drop characteristic.
Regretfully there is no shortage of clapped out Cessna 150's that would never pass a searching no-nonsense airworthiness check by a diligent inspector. Never happens of course. Yet instructors and their students accept these aircraft as the norm, and because that is all they have ever known, happily accept these aircraft if the hiring price is right and the hours are logged.
Unexpected wing drop at point of stall can usually be traced to mis-rigging. This costs time and money to rectify especially if the pilot has the temerity to log the defect officially. As Mad_jock alluded earlier, now we are talking job security!
Perhaps the acid test of such aircraft is would you be perfectly happy to send a student on their first solo, knowing the aircraft possessed a savage wing drop at the stall? A courageous decision Prime Minister...
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wing drop
Hudson
I don't really understand the reason for not refering to maintenance if the aircraft is not correct rigged. A quite simple adjustment to do. More likely, if your description is so correct, it is to do with a twistered fuselarge which will not be practical to fix, almost impossible in reality.
Experiment with a clean stall, power at idle. Does it drop a wing while in balance. Then with max flap again at idle. It is possible to do a small adjustment to the wing incidence. Flaps may also be adjusted independently. Eigther could be the problem or a mixture of both. If the fuselarge is twisted nothing will resolve the fault other than a rebuild and loads of dosh - a write off!
A factor of most high wing types like the Cessna is that the flap when lowered lowers into the propellor wash ( which is predominately portside) deflecting this turbilent air outwards causing an early wing tip stall and making the port alieron stall without it reaching it's critical angle. Any addition of aileron will in this condition agravate causing a rapid increase in yaw followed by a rapid increase in the angle of bank beyond the flight test initial 20 degrees.
However if the large wing drop is only present with say a typical approach RPM of 1700 then what I have described is the case. A pitch forward will unstall the wing very quickly and you will not experience the same phenomena. Rudder only sufficient to prevent further yaw, ailerons only when the wing is unstalled.
I don't really understand the reason for not refering to maintenance if the aircraft is not correct rigged. A quite simple adjustment to do. More likely, if your description is so correct, it is to do with a twistered fuselarge which will not be practical to fix, almost impossible in reality.
Experiment with a clean stall, power at idle. Does it drop a wing while in balance. Then with max flap again at idle. It is possible to do a small adjustment to the wing incidence. Flaps may also be adjusted independently. Eigther could be the problem or a mixture of both. If the fuselarge is twisted nothing will resolve the fault other than a rebuild and loads of dosh - a write off!
A factor of most high wing types like the Cessna is that the flap when lowered lowers into the propellor wash ( which is predominately portside) deflecting this turbilent air outwards causing an early wing tip stall and making the port alieron stall without it reaching it's critical angle. Any addition of aileron will in this condition agravate causing a rapid increase in yaw followed by a rapid increase in the angle of bank beyond the flight test initial 20 degrees.
However if the large wing drop is only present with say a typical approach RPM of 1700 then what I have described is the case. A pitch forward will unstall the wing very quickly and you will not experience the same phenomena. Rudder only sufficient to prevent further yaw, ailerons only when the wing is unstalled.
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The amount of wind drop at the stall can depend on how prompt the stall recovery is........a very prompt recovery could result in only 20deg of wing drop with no effort being made to stop the wing drop while holding the aircraft in the stall for even a slightly longer period could produce a significantly larger wing drop.
What is important is that when the controls are applied correctly, the yaw can be stopped.
When making C of A test flights, as well as checking that the figures are correct, a check is made that the aircraft is typical of type and if it is typical to have a wing drop when stalling with significant power and full flap as it is in the C150 then provided that it is easily contained, there is no serious problem with the aircraft. Reporting the direction and magnitude may give the engineers a reason to check the rigging but then again it may not.
Instructors teach stalling and spin awareness so that the unintentional stall can be avoided not so that people can becaome good at stalling the aircraft. Having a nice wind drop could reinforce the teaching that stalls are something to be avoided.
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Mad Jock,
I believe that instructors are perfectly capable of reporting what they believe to be excessive wing drop. They seem well capable of reporting rough running engines despite not being given any specific training in how smooth the engine should run.
---
-273,
So over here we use ailerons to roll the aircraft and you say that is unsafe. What safe method to US and Canadian ATPLs use to roll the aircraft 5 degrees towards the operating engine?
Still think that this has nothing to do with the wing drop described.
Regards,
DFC
What is important is that when the controls are applied correctly, the yaw can be stopped.
When making C of A test flights, as well as checking that the figures are correct, a check is made that the aircraft is typical of type and if it is typical to have a wing drop when stalling with significant power and full flap as it is in the C150 then provided that it is easily contained, there is no serious problem with the aircraft. Reporting the direction and magnitude may give the engineers a reason to check the rigging but then again it may not.
Instructors teach stalling and spin awareness so that the unintentional stall can be avoided not so that people can becaome good at stalling the aircraft. Having a nice wind drop could reinforce the teaching that stalls are something to be avoided.
---
Mad Jock,
I believe that instructors are perfectly capable of reporting what they believe to be excessive wing drop. They seem well capable of reporting rough running engines despite not being given any specific training in how smooth the engine should run.
---
-273,
So over here we use ailerons to roll the aircraft and you say that is unsafe. What safe method to US and Canadian ATPLs use to roll the aircraft 5 degrees towards the operating engine?
Still think that this has nothing to do with the wing drop described.
Regards,
DFC
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Hi DFC
I guess I will bite to your post although I was going to stop as it was off topic to the the rest of it.
In the US and Canada we also roll into the good engine a maximum of 5deg and that initial roll whilst flying fast enough not to worry about VMc will be accomplished using aieleron and contolled rudder. The ball will be half out of the track as they like to say.
If however you so happen to be flying slow for whatever reason and try to control the the increased roll rate whilst approaching VMc with aieleron you will only make the matter worse.
It will eventually lead to an aggressive roll toward the inoperative engine, at which point or sensibly before hand: reduce power to idle, pitch for blue line, return aircraft to correct flight attitude and then smooth addition of power should be carried out.
You also seem to be confused about engine out ops and VMc, control of the aircraft whilst opertaing with an engine out is for all intents and purposes the same as with all of them working. VMc on the other hand occurs after the aircraft has been treated incorrectly either from pilot error or from other factors beyond his control whilst the aircraft is operating with engine(s) out.
The ground school teacher I had during my conversion and whilst sitting in his principals of flight class, was trying to convince me that it was fine to use aeileron during VMc, to which I said politely that that was not correct.
If you so wish to use your aielrons during VMc, please advise me of where and when you fly and I will oblige by not being anywhere near by, as the VMc accident pictures I have seen are not very pretty.
I really do not want to carry on the conversation on VMc as it is detracting from what the topic is about on the thread. So if you want to carry it on I can start a new thread and you can expalin all about your feathered engine VMc demos.
I am also not sure how many times I can say it I was never equating stalls to VMc. I also do not think in the post were I wrote about Vmc anything like that was written, I could be wrong but the way I read my post that was not how it sounded.
-273
I guess I will bite to your post although I was going to stop as it was off topic to the the rest of it.
In the US and Canada we also roll into the good engine a maximum of 5deg and that initial roll whilst flying fast enough not to worry about VMc will be accomplished using aieleron and contolled rudder. The ball will be half out of the track as they like to say.
If however you so happen to be flying slow for whatever reason and try to control the the increased roll rate whilst approaching VMc with aieleron you will only make the matter worse.
It will eventually lead to an aggressive roll toward the inoperative engine, at which point or sensibly before hand: reduce power to idle, pitch for blue line, return aircraft to correct flight attitude and then smooth addition of power should be carried out.
You also seem to be confused about engine out ops and VMc, control of the aircraft whilst opertaing with an engine out is for all intents and purposes the same as with all of them working. VMc on the other hand occurs after the aircraft has been treated incorrectly either from pilot error or from other factors beyond his control whilst the aircraft is operating with engine(s) out.
The ground school teacher I had during my conversion and whilst sitting in his principals of flight class, was trying to convince me that it was fine to use aeileron during VMc, to which I said politely that that was not correct.
If you so wish to use your aielrons during VMc, please advise me of where and when you fly and I will oblige by not being anywhere near by, as the VMc accident pictures I have seen are not very pretty.
I really do not want to carry on the conversation on VMc as it is detracting from what the topic is about on the thread. So if you want to carry it on I can start a new thread and you can expalin all about your feathered engine VMc demos.
I am also not sure how many times I can say it I was never equating stalls to VMc. I also do not think in the post were I wrote about Vmc anything like that was written, I could be wrong but the way I read my post that was not how it sounded.
-273
Last edited by minus273; 9th May 2004 at 01:58.
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Normally if a pilot experiences a severe wing drop at point of stall in an aircraft such as the Cessna 150, which is designed so that severe wing drops are not supposed to occur at that point
- deep breath here, as he continues to the next sentence -
The pilot should report the problem in the approved maintenance document and an engineer does what he is paid to do - that is rectify the defect.
For some reason in Australia, GA pilots who do the correct - and legal -thing, are often rapped over the knuckles by their operator, and in some cases, sacked, for recording the defect(s). Its called "making waves". Every GA pilot knows of the perils. It is a culture which even the CAA have not been able to eradicate. It often starts from the attitude to defect reporting instilled in flying schools instructors and is self perpetuating.
That is why such defects as a mis-rigged aircraft can continue for years as the defect is not picked up during routine maintenance.
Hence the original post.
How bad must a wing drop be before the pilot can safely report it? Do the original certification flight test requirements have current validity in the flying training business? And what are the certification requirements, anyway?
- deep breath here, as he continues to the next sentence -
The pilot should report the problem in the approved maintenance document and an engineer does what he is paid to do - that is rectify the defect.
For some reason in Australia, GA pilots who do the correct - and legal -thing, are often rapped over the knuckles by their operator, and in some cases, sacked, for recording the defect(s). Its called "making waves". Every GA pilot knows of the perils. It is a culture which even the CAA have not been able to eradicate. It often starts from the attitude to defect reporting instilled in flying schools instructors and is self perpetuating.
That is why such defects as a mis-rigged aircraft can continue for years as the defect is not picked up during routine maintenance.
Hence the original post.
How bad must a wing drop be before the pilot can safely report it? Do the original certification flight test requirements have current validity in the flying training business? And what are the certification requirements, anyway?
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I love all this, this is better than a night down at the pub!
the original question was how bad should a wing drop be before a pilot reports it. how about show me 10 pilots and i will show you 10 different interpretations of how bad the wing drop was.
there is quite a lot of duff info on these posts
the thread seems to have gone onto recovery action. so here is a question for all of you to think about. is an a/c in a spin stalled? if you belive it is stalled how many of you would like to change your statement of, stall recovery always starts with FULL POWER.
Can i suggest those of you that believe that the first thing you do is select full power never accidentally stall at low level with a low nose attitude
when discussing stall recovery the mistake that most instructors and all students make is the failure to mention C of G. Not one post here mentions C of G yet it is the one factor that can turn a docile a/c into a lethal macine from which you could be in a position from which you could never recover from a stall or spin.
for anybody who is not convinced can i suggest you stall and spin a cherokee with a front seat passenger and then try it with 4 heavy male passengers on board (but dont do it until i give you the recovery technique in my next post)
no one has mentioned degree of stall, how for instance would you explain control surafce stall(no one has mentioned wing wash out either)
there are some crackers here
Unexpected wing drop at point of stall can usually be traced to mis-rigging.THIS IS A DANGEROUS STATEMENT how on earth did you come up with that?
wing drop at the stall is caused by one wing TIP stalling before the other and can be caused by a variety of reasons how about a big dose of hangar rash on the outboard leading edge of one wing for just one instance
several respondents mention using aileron at the stall. FAA certification requires wing drop in certain configurations to be shown to be capable of being picked up with AILERON. i wonder if some of you have actuall fully stalled a modern a/c. birch and bramson by the way was written for tiger moth pilots,
THIS IS MY FAVOURITE
A factor of most high wing types like the Cessna is that the flap when lowered lowers into the propellor wash ( which is predominately portside) deflecting this turbilent air outwards causing an early wing tip stall and making the port alieron stall without it reaching it's critical angle. Any addition of aileron will in this condition agravate causing a rapid increase in yaw followed by a rapid increase in the angle of bank beyond the flight test initial 20 degrees.
COMPLETEY WRONG esp making the port aileron stall without it reaching its critical angle thats if you undrstand what that means
PICKING UP A WING
the hallmark of someone who knows very little about practical stall recovery. Why do you need to pick the wing up, yes it can be done but why would you want to cause adverse aileron drag and aileron drag at or around the point of stall, why would you want to use the rudder which produces yaw at or around the point of stall. again why does everyone feel you have to return the a/c to straight and level after a stall, the object is actualy to regain control with the minimum height loss(something else mentioned by no one)
the inspector who said to expect to loose 500 ft in a c150 recovery must have been in the pub beforehand!
HERES ANOTHER
Perhaps the acid test of such aircraft is would you be perfectly happy to send a student on their first solo, knowing the aircraft possessed a savage wing drop at the stall?
the phantom had such a violent wing drop at the stall which you wouldnt belive so much so that all students were told never to make any rearward pressure after going over the threshold merely to let it hit the deck with power on.
by the way the bigest danger to students from stalling in c150/52s is the go around with full flap not the landing!
HERES ANOTHER
and you won't enter a spin unless the wing does stall which depends on how close the stall speed and Vmc are.
WRONG that should read" unless the wing TIP on one wing stalls before the other."
HOMEGUARD
But, that no way infers that the use of ailerons at the stall is the correct action for recovery. It is an airworthiness control assessment only.
WRONG some manufaucturers advise the use of aileron at the stall(check out some handbooks) who knows more about the a/c you or the manufacturer. when you get to court you will find the prosecution barrister will be quoting from the pilots notes not your opinion!
just to conclude you need to determine if you are teaching stall recovery on type or for all a/c there is a difference esp on spinning. thats why a lot of peole spun in on chipmunks and travellers who had been taught spin recovery on c150s.
the original question was how bad should a wing drop be before a pilot reports it. how about show me 10 pilots and i will show you 10 different interpretations of how bad the wing drop was.
there is quite a lot of duff info on these posts
the thread seems to have gone onto recovery action. so here is a question for all of you to think about. is an a/c in a spin stalled? if you belive it is stalled how many of you would like to change your statement of, stall recovery always starts with FULL POWER.
Can i suggest those of you that believe that the first thing you do is select full power never accidentally stall at low level with a low nose attitude
when discussing stall recovery the mistake that most instructors and all students make is the failure to mention C of G. Not one post here mentions C of G yet it is the one factor that can turn a docile a/c into a lethal macine from which you could be in a position from which you could never recover from a stall or spin.
for anybody who is not convinced can i suggest you stall and spin a cherokee with a front seat passenger and then try it with 4 heavy male passengers on board (but dont do it until i give you the recovery technique in my next post)
no one has mentioned degree of stall, how for instance would you explain control surafce stall(no one has mentioned wing wash out either)
there are some crackers here
Unexpected wing drop at point of stall can usually be traced to mis-rigging.THIS IS A DANGEROUS STATEMENT how on earth did you come up with that?
wing drop at the stall is caused by one wing TIP stalling before the other and can be caused by a variety of reasons how about a big dose of hangar rash on the outboard leading edge of one wing for just one instance
several respondents mention using aileron at the stall. FAA certification requires wing drop in certain configurations to be shown to be capable of being picked up with AILERON. i wonder if some of you have actuall fully stalled a modern a/c. birch and bramson by the way was written for tiger moth pilots,
THIS IS MY FAVOURITE
A factor of most high wing types like the Cessna is that the flap when lowered lowers into the propellor wash ( which is predominately portside) deflecting this turbilent air outwards causing an early wing tip stall and making the port alieron stall without it reaching it's critical angle. Any addition of aileron will in this condition agravate causing a rapid increase in yaw followed by a rapid increase in the angle of bank beyond the flight test initial 20 degrees.
COMPLETEY WRONG esp making the port aileron stall without it reaching its critical angle thats if you undrstand what that means
PICKING UP A WING
the hallmark of someone who knows very little about practical stall recovery. Why do you need to pick the wing up, yes it can be done but why would you want to cause adverse aileron drag and aileron drag at or around the point of stall, why would you want to use the rudder which produces yaw at or around the point of stall. again why does everyone feel you have to return the a/c to straight and level after a stall, the object is actualy to regain control with the minimum height loss(something else mentioned by no one)
the inspector who said to expect to loose 500 ft in a c150 recovery must have been in the pub beforehand!
HERES ANOTHER
Perhaps the acid test of such aircraft is would you be perfectly happy to send a student on their first solo, knowing the aircraft possessed a savage wing drop at the stall?
the phantom had such a violent wing drop at the stall which you wouldnt belive so much so that all students were told never to make any rearward pressure after going over the threshold merely to let it hit the deck with power on.
by the way the bigest danger to students from stalling in c150/52s is the go around with full flap not the landing!
HERES ANOTHER
and you won't enter a spin unless the wing does stall which depends on how close the stall speed and Vmc are.
WRONG that should read" unless the wing TIP on one wing stalls before the other."
HOMEGUARD
But, that no way infers that the use of ailerons at the stall is the correct action for recovery. It is an airworthiness control assessment only.
WRONG some manufaucturers advise the use of aileron at the stall(check out some handbooks) who knows more about the a/c you or the manufacturer. when you get to court you will find the prosecution barrister will be quoting from the pilots notes not your opinion!
just to conclude you need to determine if you are teaching stall recovery on type or for all a/c there is a difference esp on spinning. thats why a lot of peole spun in on chipmunks and travellers who had been taught spin recovery on c150s.
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You are getting confused between an educated thats wrong and **** off I am not flying in that heap of ****e.
Very short learning curve on that one. And the descion is completly variable on the level of hassel and chance of not getting to the pub.
MJ
You are getting confused between an educated thats wrong and **** off I am not flying in that heap of ****e.
Very short learning curve on that one. And the descion is completly variable on the level of hassel and chance of not getting to the pub.
MJ
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who decides what the standard stall recovery is. it seems to me that a lot of you are talking about your own experiences or how you were taught. do you take that as gospel. it seems quite a lot of you should review how you teach stalling and how you explain it.
lets take birch and bransons book for instance, this was written by wartime pilots for british a/c , good in its
day training has moved on considerably. i banned this book from my school 25 years ago because it was not upto date so i am suprised to see somone quoting it now.(quite embarrasing i might add because neville birch was a member)
there are several missing pieces to all of your explanations and quite a lot of knowledge gaps.
no one for instance mentioned c of g or weight. no one mentioned degree of stall, in fact no one tried to even define a stall. you all blindly assume that every stall is the same. its not so.
before you can talk about recovery you need to know something about how you got there and the handling characteristics of THE PARTICULAR a/c you are flying.
the first consideration when flying any aircraft is to read the flying manual or approved document. any a/c that has a c of a in this country has a CAA approved manual/ document. this is the first place to find out about the stall spin characteristics of the a/c. i mean why kill yourself in the a/c trying to find out about all this when the manufacturers test pilot has very kindly been there and got the tee shirt. you will also find the manufacturers test pilot has much more experience than you have. the other reason for going here first if you are a proffesional is when you have seriously injured your student in a stall related accident you had better hope than your stall recovery tecnique matches the one the prosecution barrister has in the handling notes!
there are so many holes in all of the above threads i hardly know where to start!
standard recovery FULL POWER; really. if you fell out of the bottom of a loop at 200 feet you would really recover with full power. i would have a re-think there. an a/c in a spin is in a stalled state so again you would recover with full power first,would you, i dont think so.
before you start talking about blindly appying full power as standard recovery ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by recovering from the stall(again not mentioned) how many real stalls are a result of poorly executed aerobatics or configuration or attitude changes at low level. NOTE low level. reducing HEIGHT LOSS must be a major consideration.
not mentioned at all is the degree of stall. is the wing fully stalled along its length or is it partially stalled. or the difference between being in a stall 1 degree above critical incidence and 10 degrees above critical incidence can change the stalling characteristics markedly. years ago many instructors used to say certain a/c didnt actuall stall they just wallowed,rally commander, cherokee for instance. what they actuall meant was at the c of g that
they stalled them at, at the weight they stalled them at, and at the slow change of incidence they brought them into the stall the a/c demonstrated the abillity to still have contol function with full up elevator without the nose pitching excessively down and staying down
amyone who has done a walk round on a high winged cessna surely must have noticed the washout towards the wing tips which INCLUDES THE AILERON. this is why correct aileron control will still be available at certain stall entries in certain configurations. (this a/c
is atually certified to have aileron respose at the power off stall).
the chap that gave the explanation about why the wing drops at the stall using propwash over the flaps needs to do some serious revision on elementary aerodynamics.
when you put flap down you are changing Cl over that part of the wing the flaps affect. you have in fact two different wings on the a/c.an inboard high lift section and an otboard standard section. on a cessna you have two other high lift considerations the slots above the flaps nd the sheer size of the flap in relation to wing area. what this results in is an inboard wing section that will remain unstalled with a normal approach into the stall. there will be a wing drop because the tip must stall first,whichever one goes first goes first. the large wing drop is due to the very large change in Cl across the breadth of the wing coupled to the unstalling of opposite tip.
i could go on and on but my wife dosnt like me being on here!
lets take birch and bransons book for instance, this was written by wartime pilots for british a/c , good in its
day training has moved on considerably. i banned this book from my school 25 years ago because it was not upto date so i am suprised to see somone quoting it now.(quite embarrasing i might add because neville birch was a member)
there are several missing pieces to all of your explanations and quite a lot of knowledge gaps.
no one for instance mentioned c of g or weight. no one mentioned degree of stall, in fact no one tried to even define a stall. you all blindly assume that every stall is the same. its not so.
before you can talk about recovery you need to know something about how you got there and the handling characteristics of THE PARTICULAR a/c you are flying.
the first consideration when flying any aircraft is to read the flying manual or approved document. any a/c that has a c of a in this country has a CAA approved manual/ document. this is the first place to find out about the stall spin characteristics of the a/c. i mean why kill yourself in the a/c trying to find out about all this when the manufacturers test pilot has very kindly been there and got the tee shirt. you will also find the manufacturers test pilot has much more experience than you have. the other reason for going here first if you are a proffesional is when you have seriously injured your student in a stall related accident you had better hope than your stall recovery tecnique matches the one the prosecution barrister has in the handling notes!
there are so many holes in all of the above threads i hardly know where to start!
standard recovery FULL POWER; really. if you fell out of the bottom of a loop at 200 feet you would really recover with full power. i would have a re-think there. an a/c in a spin is in a stalled state so again you would recover with full power first,would you, i dont think so.
before you start talking about blindly appying full power as standard recovery ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by recovering from the stall(again not mentioned) how many real stalls are a result of poorly executed aerobatics or configuration or attitude changes at low level. NOTE low level. reducing HEIGHT LOSS must be a major consideration.
not mentioned at all is the degree of stall. is the wing fully stalled along its length or is it partially stalled. or the difference between being in a stall 1 degree above critical incidence and 10 degrees above critical incidence can change the stalling characteristics markedly. years ago many instructors used to say certain a/c didnt actuall stall they just wallowed,rally commander, cherokee for instance. what they actuall meant was at the c of g that
they stalled them at, at the weight they stalled them at, and at the slow change of incidence they brought them into the stall the a/c demonstrated the abillity to still have contol function with full up elevator without the nose pitching excessively down and staying down
amyone who has done a walk round on a high winged cessna surely must have noticed the washout towards the wing tips which INCLUDES THE AILERON. this is why correct aileron control will still be available at certain stall entries in certain configurations. (this a/c
is atually certified to have aileron respose at the power off stall).
the chap that gave the explanation about why the wing drops at the stall using propwash over the flaps needs to do some serious revision on elementary aerodynamics.
when you put flap down you are changing Cl over that part of the wing the flaps affect. you have in fact two different wings on the a/c.an inboard high lift section and an otboard standard section. on a cessna you have two other high lift considerations the slots above the flaps nd the sheer size of the flap in relation to wing area. what this results in is an inboard wing section that will remain unstalled with a normal approach into the stall. there will be a wing drop because the tip must stall first,whichever one goes first goes first. the large wing drop is due to the very large change in Cl across the breadth of the wing coupled to the unstalling of opposite tip.
i could go on and on but my wife dosnt like me being on here!