Air experience or trial lesson?
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Who cares? ;-)
interesting discussion going on here.....
Trial flights... BEagle has it right, as I see it...
I don't know the particulars in England, only here in Germany, which is also now a JAR country (what a mess 
) but here ANY student, or potential student must have certain paperwork laid before the school before going up in a so-called "trail lesson" (also for insurance reasons) other wise he/she can only go up in the right seat, the instuctor in the left (and yes, ONLY instructors). No one on the ground can see who is actually handling the controls and the instrutor has the full responstibility anyway.
Sightseeing flights for pay are legal here, outside of an AOC, as long as they are conducted on a plane which is registered as having only 4 seats or less, payment isn't high enough to appear to be for profit, and no advertising is done. This enables clubs to give flights to visitors (and yes, usually a bit more expensive then a regular club flight
). Of course, there are a lot of clubs and LOTS of balloonists that misuse this rule ... making quite a profit indeed... but whose to "catch" them? It's difficult to prove in the end....
if the situation in England is similar to here, the reason for no inspections is not choosing to do so but lack of man(woman) power! Personel has been cut, the remaining personel are overloaded with work and just don't have the time to inspect ....
I find it fascinating how the various JAA states followed up on the JAR's differently.... no harmonisation at all it seems... I have have downloaded your LASORS and find it very intersting to compare with our regs...
Westy
Trial flights... BEagle has it right, as I see it...
The arrogance of that "I fly airliners, so I'm equally as qualified to conduct a 'trail flight' as any puddlejumper instructor" statement beggars belief. If you are not an authorised instructor, you may NOT conduct 'trial flying lessons'. Period. No discussion...
) but here ANY student, or potential student must have certain paperwork laid before the school before going up in a so-called "trail lesson" (also for insurance reasons) other wise he/she can only go up in the right seat, the instuctor in the left (and yes, ONLY instructors). No one on the ground can see who is actually handling the controls and the instrutor has the full responstibility anyway.Sightseeing flights for pay are legal here, outside of an AOC, as long as they are conducted on a plane which is registered as having only 4 seats or less, payment isn't high enough to appear to be for profit, and no advertising is done. This enables clubs to give flights to visitors (and yes, usually a bit more expensive then a regular club flight
). Of course, there are a lot of clubs and LOTS of balloonists that misuse this rule ... making quite a profit indeed... but whose to "catch" them? It's difficult to prove in the end....
However an AOC Inspector is not appropiate. The CAA already have Standards Inspectors for Training schools who, already, may inspect registered flying schools, if they so wish. So far they have chosen not to do so on a regular basis. No doubt because the system is working quite well
I find it fascinating how the various JAA states followed up on the JAR's differently.... no harmonisation at all it seems... I have have downloaded your LASORS and find it very intersting to compare with our regs...
Westy
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Euroland
MJ,
Perhaps you should read article 74 of the ANO before you make such statements.
That is the basic FTL scheme for every instructor.
Regards,
DFC
Perhaps you should read article 74 of the ANO before you make such statements.
Record so far i have heard about is 136hrs in 1 month.
And my personal was 118hrs.
And my personal was 118hrs.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: May 2001
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74 - (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times:
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours; or
(b) during the period of twelve months expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.
(2)
(a) This article shall not apply to a flight made in circumstances specified in sub-paragraph (b).
(b)
(i) A private flight in an aircraft of which the maximum total weight does not exceed 1600 kg; or
(ii) a flight which is not for the purpose of public transport and is not operated by an air transport undertaking where, at the time when the flight begins, the aggregate of all the flight times of the member of the flight crew concerned since he was last medically examined and found fit by a person approved by the CAA for the purpose of article 26(2) does not exceed 25 hours.
Yep know this one.
The exuse used is that the flight isn't public transport so section (2) is being invoked therefore there are no 28 day limits for instructors. The 900 hours does apply apparently depending on who you talk to. Some say you need to get an AME extenstion every 25 hours after 900 some don't. Same for photography they can fly 12 hours a day all summer if required and still be legal.
Yet another grey area.
What your actually fit for after more than 100hrs instructing in 28 days is up for debate. I know this will only effect certain types of school with large contracts or monoploy markets.But i should imagine welshpool in its day would have had instructors doing similar amounts of hours. WWW?
MJ
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours; or
(b) during the period of twelve months expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.
(2)
(a) This article shall not apply to a flight made in circumstances specified in sub-paragraph (b).
(b)
(i) A private flight in an aircraft of which the maximum total weight does not exceed 1600 kg; or
(ii) a flight which is not for the purpose of public transport and is not operated by an air transport undertaking where, at the time when the flight begins, the aggregate of all the flight times of the member of the flight crew concerned since he was last medically examined and found fit by a person approved by the CAA for the purpose of article 26(2) does not exceed 25 hours.
Yep know this one.
The exuse used is that the flight isn't public transport so section (2) is being invoked therefore there are no 28 day limits for instructors. The 900 hours does apply apparently depending on who you talk to. Some say you need to get an AME extenstion every 25 hours after 900 some don't. Same for photography they can fly 12 hours a day all summer if required and still be legal.
Yet another grey area.
What your actually fit for after more than 100hrs instructing in 28 days is up for debate. I know this will only effect certain types of school with large contracts or monoploy markets.But i should imagine welshpool in its day would have had instructors doing similar amounts of hours. WWW?
MJ
Last edited by mad_jock; 3rd April 2004 at 10:27.
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From: Euroland
Section 2 gives two exemptions from the 100hr per 28 days or 900 hour per year limit. They are for;
private flights with a weight limit; and
Non-public transport flights where the pilot has completed less than 25 hours since medical examination.
For an instructional flight (Aerial Work), in order to exceed the 100 hour limit, one would have to be medically exammined. I doubt if any AME would pass as fit a pilot who intentionally worked such excessive hours.
So yes one can fly a 12 hour day on 8 consecutive days and then 4 hours on the 9th but one then needs a medical to complete any further flying (other than private flying) for the next 28 days.
Most organisations such as AOPA and the BMAA remind instructors of the 100hour and 900 hour limits.
Of course, the hours you spend supervising solos, providing groundschool, pre and post flight briefs, aircraft check A and documentation are not catered for in the limits so it is entirely possible to work 16 hour days but only fly 4 hours each day.
Do instructors need any further FTL?
Regards,
DFC
Further to the above,
Taking the UK weather and overall regular VFR flying season into account, perhaps instructors in the UK should press for the same system that is provided for in Canada where up to 14 hour days are permitted for certain operators during the Summer flying season because of the weather and daylight limitations of the Winter.
Regards,
DFC
private flights with a weight limit; and
Non-public transport flights where the pilot has completed less than 25 hours since medical examination.
For an instructional flight (Aerial Work), in order to exceed the 100 hour limit, one would have to be medically exammined. I doubt if any AME would pass as fit a pilot who intentionally worked such excessive hours.
So yes one can fly a 12 hour day on 8 consecutive days and then 4 hours on the 9th but one then needs a medical to complete any further flying (other than private flying) for the next 28 days.
Most organisations such as AOPA and the BMAA remind instructors of the 100hour and 900 hour limits.
Of course, the hours you spend supervising solos, providing groundschool, pre and post flight briefs, aircraft check A and documentation are not catered for in the limits so it is entirely possible to work 16 hour days but only fly 4 hours each day.
Do instructors need any further FTL?
Regards,
DFC
Further to the above,
Taking the UK weather and overall regular VFR flying season into account, perhaps instructors in the UK should press for the same system that is provided for in Canada where up to 14 hour days are permitted for certain operators during the Summer flying season because of the weather and daylight limitations of the Winter.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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thats yet another theory on how to read that section.And it was also a question in the Q&A session by my FIE.
And quoted the 100hrs every 28days 900hrs a year stuff and was told I was wrong I only had to comply with 900hrs a year.
So if the Flight Instructor Examiners aren't getting it right there is not much of a hope for a FI getting it right.
We could have a laugh and email the CAA I suppose for a written answer but i suspect they won't comment.
The only further FTL I would like is a duty time period in the school and also an enforcement of rest days. ie not starting at 7am then flying all day then having to work until 10pm doing ground school to then again start at 7am and then repeat 7 days a week. And its more for the protection of low hour Instructors who can and will work every hour under the sun and moon to get hours in the log book. So maybe a 3 rest days in 14 days rolling. Max 12hr shift followed by min 12 hour rest. 100hrs a month I can live with, and it should be published so no argument can be entered into through those Instructor mags we get every quarter, and 900hrs a year stands.
In fact if there are any CAA bods reading why not send it out with the next one before the summer season is under full swing.
I think the FAA has FTL's for instructors. When I did my PPL in FL I remember my instructor got sent home due to FTL's and he also wasn't allowed to fly more than x hours a day.
MJ
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: notts
FTL
From the qoute of the ANO, does it not say 100hrs over 28 CONSECUTIVE DAYS rather than a period of 28 days.
That would then mean that for each day off a further 100hr block would become effective. i.e. 125 flying hours within a CALENDER MONTH is OK, in regard to the ANO.
The FIE qouted perhaps has a point
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours; or
The FIE qouted perhaps has a point
Joined: May 2001
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Nope thats not how it reads for public transport FTL scheme's it reads for 28 days blocks. So as you move 1 day on the previous 27 must not have more than 100 hrs flown in them.
And the FIE said to ignore the 28days limit.
But yet again it shows that there is cross information being fed to FI's by FIE, CFI's etc. And unfortunatly if you ask the CAA for ruling they will refuse to do it.
Anyway we will see how things pan out after the new european agency get there teeth into the rules regarding flight instruction.
MJ
And the FIE said to ignore the 28days limit.
But yet again it shows that there is cross information being fed to FI's by FIE, CFI's etc. And unfortunatly if you ask the CAA for ruling they will refuse to do it.
Anyway we will see how things pan out after the new european agency get there teeth into the rules regarding flight instruction.
MJ
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Euroland
The CAA and the BMAA have issued guidance to instructors warning them of the limit of 100 hours in 28 days.
They state that it is unlikely that many instructors would exceed the 900 hour limit per year but that during the busy summer months instructors must be careful not to exceed the 100 hour limit.
Perhaps you should ask the CAA for clarification.
regards,
DFC
They state that it is unlikely that many instructors would exceed the 900 hour limit per year but that during the busy summer months instructors must be careful not to exceed the 100 hour limit.
Perhaps you should ask the CAA for clarification.
regards,
DFC
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
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From: Who cares? ;-)
I thought this thread was about trial lessons? shouldn't a new thread have been started for the discussion about the rest and duty times? other pilots might have gotten interested in it.....
Westy
P.S. I wish I flew so much that I had to worry about it...
Westy
P.S. I wish I flew so much that I had to worry about it...
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Nah i don't think i will bother I really don't see it being an issue in my life again.
And if you could provide a reference for where the CAA has stated that I will pass it on to the next instructor working at the school.
MJ
And if you could provide a reference for where the CAA has stated that I will pass it on to the next instructor working at the school.
MJ
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Homeguard said
Eh?????
This is pretty basic english and unambiguous. If at any time your total exceeds 100 hours over the previous 28 days you are illegal. If you have 97 hours in the last 27 days and do four hours today then you will, at the end of today, have done 101 hours in the last 28 days and be illegal.
What difference does it make whether you flew yesterday or the day before or the day before that? If you did the 97 hours in 14 days, did nothing for the next 13 days and then four hours on the 28th day you would still be illegal.
Mike
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours; or
That would then mean that for each day off a further 100hr block would become effective. i.e. 125 flying hours within a CALENDER MONTH is OK, in regard to the ANO.
That would then mean that for each day off a further 100hr block would become effective. i.e. 125 flying hours within a CALENDER MONTH is OK, in regard to the ANO.
This is pretty basic english and unambiguous. If at any time your total exceeds 100 hours over the previous 28 days you are illegal. If you have 97 hours in the last 27 days and do four hours today then you will, at the end of today, have done 101 hours in the last 28 days and be illegal.
What difference does it make whether you flew yesterday or the day before or the day before that? If you did the 97 hours in 14 days, did nothing for the next 13 days and then four hours on the 28th day you would still be illegal.
Mike
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: notts
Instructing hours
Mike
Surely 'consecutive' in the ANO section quoted means consecutive flying days not calender days. All days follow one from the other on a calender, how could they be otherwise, and the obvious needs no reminder.
If a statement that; maximum hours to be flown within X consecutive days, is allured to, then that must be flying days. A break of one day therefore would create another block of consecutive days which may also be broken with a day off to become another series of days.
JAR Ops. I believe refers differently to a 'period' which is different. Instructing is not prescribed within JAR Ops.
Surely 'consecutive' in the ANO section quoted means consecutive flying days not calender days. All days follow one from the other on a calender, how could they be otherwise, and the obvious needs no reminder.
If a statement that; maximum hours to be flown within X consecutive days, is allured to, then that must be flying days. A break of one day therefore would create another block of consecutive days which may also be broken with a day off to become another series of days.
JAR Ops. I believe refers differently to a 'period' which is different. Instructing is not prescribed within JAR Ops.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
the aggregate of all his previous flight times:
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day
It says 28 consecutive days, not 28 flying days, 28 duty days, 28 working days, 28 days excluding bank and public holidays.
Take the expression "the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins" first, work out what it means, and then work back from that.
Consecutive:- Following one after another without interruption
Mike
