What the Examiner said
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What the Examiner said
A mate told me that after his flight test, the Examiner said something like "you struggled and barely scraped a pass, flying obviously isn't your forte". And an Examiner once said to me that I had passed but didn't deserve to. Is this helpful to the candidate, or would it be preferably to say "You've passed Bloggs, but pay attention to your navigation, it could be a bit sharper" Makes me think that confidence could be shattered by a few damning words.
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flying obviously isn't your forte".
IMHO, People like the one you mention shouldn't be examiners!!!!
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As a teacher myself,I know full-well the power of words. They are often powerful enough to inspire someone with low confidence to go on to things they never imagined possible,or they can do irrepairable damage to someone. Thank the Lord this guy chose flying and not the medical profession! 
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Whirlybird. I'm with you on your last comment. Sound like that one needs to go for a base check in people management.
As an FI I have found the choice of words can make or break the lesson. Several times I have found myself saying calmly "OK, I don't think that's quite right. Return to straight and level, and I'll demo that again......Follow me through" When inside I've been yelling "What the
are you doing?!"
I'm very good friends with an examiner and he believes in either a pass, pass with a long de-brief into mistakes, a partial, or fail. Having sat in on de-briefs I've never heard him be rude or degrading even if the performance has been beyond terrible.
That sort of de-brief is not good for the student, and if they have spent that sort of money on training (£2.50 per minute) just how demoralising can that be. Plus if they think they are a low quality pass, if they get into a situation that challenges them they'll panic because they'll think they aren't good or confident enough to deal with it.
If he didn't deserve to pass, then fail him and say "go and concentrate on x,y,z then try again"
Having partialled my IR first time out, my debrief as soon as the props stopped turning was "Bu**er! If you hadn't bust that level I'd have passed you. I'm free tomorrow, re-book with Gatwick, go drown your sorrows and I'll see you at 2pm"
Ah well......... there's always one!
HOP
As an FI I have found the choice of words can make or break the lesson. Several times I have found myself saying calmly "OK, I don't think that's quite right. Return to straight and level, and I'll demo that again......Follow me through" When inside I've been yelling "What the
are you doing?!" I'm very good friends with an examiner and he believes in either a pass, pass with a long de-brief into mistakes, a partial, or fail. Having sat in on de-briefs I've never heard him be rude or degrading even if the performance has been beyond terrible.
That sort of de-brief is not good for the student, and if they have spent that sort of money on training (£2.50 per minute) just how demoralising can that be. Plus if they think they are a low quality pass, if they get into a situation that challenges them they'll panic because they'll think they aren't good or confident enough to deal with it.
If he didn't deserve to pass, then fail him and say "go and concentrate on x,y,z then try again"
Having partialled my IR first time out, my debrief as soon as the props stopped turning was "Bu**er! If you hadn't bust that level I'd have passed you. I'm free tomorrow, re-book with Gatwick, go drown your sorrows and I'll see you at 2pm"
Ah well......... there's always one!
HOP
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It's not the 'pass' or 'fail' we're talking about here, it's the Examiner's "put down" comments. The Examiner has the power to leave a candidate thinking he's 'not really up to it', even if he passed the test. Many people with existing low confidence go through life achieving success (eg a pass in a flight test), but inwardly believing that they're a fraud and that their inabilities will be uncovered sooner or later.
'A pass is a pass', as they say. If you give the candidate a pass, leave him with some sage advice, but don't leave him with nagging doubts.
It's not the 'pass' or 'fail' we're talking about here, it's the Examiner's "put down" comments. The Examiner has the power to leave a candidate thinking he's 'not really up to it', even if he passed the test. Many people with existing low confidence go through life achieving success (eg a pass in a flight test), but inwardly believing that they're a fraud and that their inabilities will be uncovered sooner or later.
'A pass is a pass', as they say. If you give the candidate a pass, leave him with some sage advice, but don't leave him with nagging doubts.
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There is a world of difference between telling someone: "You didn't do very well" and "You'll never be any good". I've experienced both. The first makes you determined to try harder. The second makes you feel like you might as well give up. Or, as loftustb said, that you're a fraud and will be discovered sooner or later.
The time it happened to me I knew enough to understand what was going on...the person concerned thought I was over-confident, and actually I was anything but, but I have been assured by people who know me that I can appear that way. Even though I understood, it took me ages, plus loads of reassurance from others, before I could even begin to get over it.
And as far as flying is concerned, the amount of under-confidence that causes is actually quite dangerous. You can't give up when things get tough up there; you can't think you're a fraud and will never be any good: you HAVE to believe you can do it.
The time it happened to me I knew enough to understand what was going on...the person concerned thought I was over-confident, and actually I was anything but, but I have been assured by people who know me that I can appear that way. Even though I understood, it took me ages, plus loads of reassurance from others, before I could even begin to get over it.
And as far as flying is concerned, the amount of under-confidence that causes is actually quite dangerous. You can't give up when things get tough up there; you can't think you're a fraud and will never be any good: you HAVE to believe you can do it.
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you cannot "pass" someone and say he did lousy!! either he passed satisfactorily or he needs more training! the guy may loose his confidence so much, that he gives up flying! that examiner needs some training himself... in psychology
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I recall my B-747 Oral in a simulator. I went through first in the left seat, and the examiner was pleased, and he signed me off.
We then switched seats. My mate was a big, short tempered Scottsman. He had done everything well. I watched the examiner sign his check as SAT.
Then he asked "What does this switch do?", pointing to the overhead guarded Emergency Landing Gear Extension switch.
Mate - "That switch extends the landing gear in the unlikely event of the landing gear not going down.".
Examiner - "Fine. How do you operate it?"
Mate - "You snip the copper wire, raise the guard, and then throw the switch. The gear should extend."
Examiner - "Correct. What extends the gear?"
Mate - "Air pressure, stored in a tank for this purpose."
Examiner - "Correct. How does the air pressure extend the gear?"
He was waiting for the standard reply of the air powering a turbine, etc..
Mate - "You throw the fookin switch and the fookin gear goes down and fookin well locks, that's how!"
This was said in his finest Scottish Burrrr, and his face was as red as his hair, at this point.
Priceless! I almost pee'ed myself.
The examiner ripped up his sheet, and re-scheduled him. He passed next time.
We then switched seats. My mate was a big, short tempered Scottsman. He had done everything well. I watched the examiner sign his check as SAT.
Then he asked "What does this switch do?", pointing to the overhead guarded Emergency Landing Gear Extension switch.
Mate - "That switch extends the landing gear in the unlikely event of the landing gear not going down.".
Examiner - "Fine. How do you operate it?"
Mate - "You snip the copper wire, raise the guard, and then throw the switch. The gear should extend."
Examiner - "Correct. What extends the gear?"
Mate - "Air pressure, stored in a tank for this purpose."
Examiner - "Correct. How does the air pressure extend the gear?"
He was waiting for the standard reply of the air powering a turbine, etc..
Mate - "You throw the fookin switch and the fookin gear goes down and fookin well locks, that's how!"
This was said in his finest Scottish Burrrr, and his face was as red as his hair, at this point.
Priceless! I almost pee'ed myself.
The examiner ripped up his sheet, and re-scheduled him. He passed next time.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Have to agree with all the sentiments in here (including having a laugh at Smedley's story, although I can't quite see how it's relevant!)
On my own PPL skills test, I totally c0cked up a cross-wind landing. I did my PPL at a field with enough runways that one of them was always into wind, so I never really got much practice, until the day of my skills test. I chose to split the test into two, and at the end of the navigation section my examiner had me land at a field I wasn't familiar with before moving on to the general handling section. Only one runway, and a reasonable cross-wind. The approach was ok, but as I came over the numbers I realised that I didn't have a clue what I was doing! Fortunately, I did the sensible thing, went around, and managed (with a lot of concentration) to get down on the next attempt.
We went on to do the general handling section, did circuits at my home airfield (on an into-wind runway!), and went in for the de-brief. I'm certain that I shouldn't have passed the landings section of the test... but there's no way that an examiner can ask me to re-do a crosswind landing because there may not be a suitable wind the next time around. So he passed me, but "suggested" that I ought to get hold of an instructor and get some cross-wind practice "soon". So that's exactly what I did.
I think he probably handled the debrief correctly. I left feeling slightly demoralised, but I knew exactly what I needed to do to bring myself up to standard, so I went away and did it.
FFF
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On my own PPL skills test, I totally c0cked up a cross-wind landing. I did my PPL at a field with enough runways that one of them was always into wind, so I never really got much practice, until the day of my skills test. I chose to split the test into two, and at the end of the navigation section my examiner had me land at a field I wasn't familiar with before moving on to the general handling section. Only one runway, and a reasonable cross-wind. The approach was ok, but as I came over the numbers I realised that I didn't have a clue what I was doing! Fortunately, I did the sensible thing, went around, and managed (with a lot of concentration) to get down on the next attempt.
We went on to do the general handling section, did circuits at my home airfield (on an into-wind runway!), and went in for the de-brief. I'm certain that I shouldn't have passed the landings section of the test... but there's no way that an examiner can ask me to re-do a crosswind landing because there may not be a suitable wind the next time around. So he passed me, but "suggested" that I ought to get hold of an instructor and get some cross-wind practice "soon". So that's exactly what I did.
I think he probably handled the debrief correctly. I left feeling slightly demoralised, but I knew exactly what I needed to do to bring myself up to standard, so I went away and did it.
FFF
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Another example of lack of standardisation between examiners and instructors.
Debriefing, appraising, assessing, should all be taught and assessed themselves, as skills required by examiners.
The standard technique of "critiquing" applied in the medical world has much merit, seeking to get the trainee/student to identify for themselves their strengths and weaknesses. But this should be done regularly after each lesson during the PPL course.
Better harmonisation of standards between examiners and instructors should mean, that a student signed off as having satisfactorily completed the PPL training programme, should only fail in exeptional circumstances, otherwise the FTO has failed to adequately train and or assess the student during the programme.
Perhaps a failed test raises more questions about the FTO than the student, or is this commercial pressure raising its ugly head again?
Debriefing, appraising, assessing, should all be taught and assessed themselves, as skills required by examiners.
The standard technique of "critiquing" applied in the medical world has much merit, seeking to get the trainee/student to identify for themselves their strengths and weaknesses. But this should be done regularly after each lesson during the PPL course.
Better harmonisation of standards between examiners and instructors should mean, that a student signed off as having satisfactorily completed the PPL training programme, should only fail in exeptional circumstances, otherwise the FTO has failed to adequately train and or assess the student during the programme.
Perhaps a failed test raises more questions about the FTO than the student, or is this commercial pressure raising its ugly head again?
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Candidates should only be presented for test when they are ready, even if it means increasing the number of hours of training above the minima. The problem is indeed commercial pressure - attempting to complete the training within the minimum munber of hours with a candidate who is either not up to scratch or whose training extends over a lengthy period, is not viable. Countless reasons why people need extra time. Student pass rate should be virtually 100 per cent if the instructor does his job properly.
As examiners it is incumbent on us to ensure that the standards are maintained and that candidates are fairly treated but everyone is an individual and should be treated with sensitivity. Even the burliest bloke can be upset at a poor performance and nervous at being tested. Think what you feel like yourself when tested for something you are not totally comfortable about. As I have said in other places - there is NEVER a place for swearing, bad language or insults in aviation. Please guys save it for the rugger field or the pub. We all pay good money for our training and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect even if our performance is sub-standard.
As examiners it is incumbent on us to ensure that the standards are maintained and that candidates are fairly treated but everyone is an individual and should be treated with sensitivity. Even the burliest bloke can be upset at a poor performance and nervous at being tested. Think what you feel like yourself when tested for something you are not totally comfortable about. As I have said in other places - there is NEVER a place for swearing, bad language or insults in aviation. Please guys save it for the rugger field or the pub. We all pay good money for our training and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect even if our performance is sub-standard.
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I remember reaading a CAA Publication "Guidance notes for Examiners." It was one of the many doocuments the school wanted you to read in preparation for the initial IR.
Any way to get to the point there were three outcomes.
1. Pass
2. "Pass with admonishment"
3. Fail
Anyway better 1 & 2 than 3 if your performance wasnt too polished rather than retraining and retests at £550 Each.
You've got the piece of paper get over the bollocking and go and get pissed!
Any way to get to the point there were three outcomes.
1. Pass
2. "Pass with admonishment"
3. Fail
Anyway better 1 & 2 than 3 if your performance wasnt too polished rather than retraining and retests at £550 Each.
You've got the piece of paper get over the bollocking and go and get pissed!
1. Try to make the 'applicant' relax. E.g. - "On the first leg I shall act as an intelligent passenger. So if I see another aeroplane I'll tell you - but I won't ask silly questions. Just tell me at some stage when we'll get to the turning point; if we get off track just describe what you're doing to get us to where we should be going - amd tell me if you change our ETA. Oh - and please wake me up if I start snoring."
2. I always try to finish with the low go-around - "Oops - a herd of goats has just run out in front of us!" Then "OK - that was fine, my turn now to pinch the landing whilst you stop sweating!!"
3. The debrief has to be quick for a successful PPL Skill Test because the applicant will be too relieved to listen to endless waffing. So a bit of levity - "I'm not signing anything until you get the coffees in!", then go slowly through the PPL paperwork whilst the applicant comes back down to earth. Finish by quickly summarising the flight, then a final check of any outstanding paperwork (e.g. his/her personal logbook)
4. Let him/her know that he/she can fly as P1C but without passengers until the CAA send back the licence - then give him/her a quick reminder about recency and re-validation.
For a partial pass, be as sensitive as you can and stress that it won't take much to finish things off. NEVER use words like "You struggled and barely scraped a pass, flying obviously isn't your forte......" If it was that bad be honest - it cannot have been good enough!
Am I just lucky or what? Only a tiny fraction of those I've taken on PPL Skill Tests haven't passed. Or perhaps it's just that our FIs are really very good indeed?
2. I always try to finish with the low go-around - "Oops - a herd of goats has just run out in front of us!" Then "OK - that was fine, my turn now to pinch the landing whilst you stop sweating!!"
3. The debrief has to be quick for a successful PPL Skill Test because the applicant will be too relieved to listen to endless waffing. So a bit of levity - "I'm not signing anything until you get the coffees in!", then go slowly through the PPL paperwork whilst the applicant comes back down to earth. Finish by quickly summarising the flight, then a final check of any outstanding paperwork (e.g. his/her personal logbook)
4. Let him/her know that he/she can fly as P1C but without passengers until the CAA send back the licence - then give him/her a quick reminder about recency and re-validation.
For a partial pass, be as sensitive as you can and stress that it won't take much to finish things off. NEVER use words like "You struggled and barely scraped a pass, flying obviously isn't your forte......" If it was that bad be honest - it cannot have been good enough!
Am I just lucky or what? Only a tiny fraction of those I've taken on PPL Skill Tests haven't passed. Or perhaps it's just that our FIs are really very good indeed?
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-If that is the approach you take with the candidate then he/she has a far greater chance of passing because you are giving them the opprotunity to perform to the best of their ability....nice to know..:ok. However, there are examiners who treat the test as a power trip... I had one very capable CPL student who was grilled to such an extent during the pre-flight briefing he went to pieces in the test. There should be much better 'relationship' training for examiners. Sadly the people I mention are ex military....why is that? And the ones with a good people attitude usually have airline backgrounds....or no formal flying background.
Having said that, it is quite correct that the candidate is the one who passes or fails.... :
-If that is the approach you take with the candidate then he/she has a far greater chance of passing because you are giving them the opprotunity to perform to the best of their ability....nice to know..:ok. However, there are examiners who treat the test as a power trip... I had one very capable CPL student who was grilled to such an extent during the pre-flight briefing he went to pieces in the test. There should be much better 'relationship' training for examiners. Sadly the people I mention are ex military....why is that? And the ones with a good people attitude usually have airline backgrounds....or no formal flying background.
Having said that, it is quite correct that the candidate is the one who passes or fails.... :
Well, I'm ex-military. Perhaps it's those who never failed a flight test themselves or who lived in little ivory towers in the military are those you've encountered?
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you could be right....it just seems to be the trend that I have noticed an 'I know best because I know no different' approach by a few in this game that I find hard to accept.
Having worked in a few different countries I feel we are a bit stuck in the mud in the UK and it needs to change...
Having worked in a few different countries I feel we are a bit stuck in the mud in the UK and it needs to change...