Brakes Off? What's it all about?
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Divergent P :
Thank you for teaching me something new...
I guess I should not have been in command of aircraft all those years, any chance you could reprogram my thought pattern so I come up to your standards?
Thank you for teaching me something new...
I guess I should not have been in command of aircraft all those years, any chance you could reprogram my thought pattern so I come up to your standards?
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Daghdaghistan
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parachuting... Standard practice..
Airborne
Flaps Retracted
Power Set
Temps and Pressures in the greens
Parking Brake ON..
Them meatbombs love to climb over the gear on their way out or even stand on them now and then.. they get pi$$ed off when they stand on the gear and the wheel throws em off..
Hence landing with the parking brake on is not a good way to impress the boss...
Airborne
Flaps Retracted
Power Set
Temps and Pressures in the greens
Parking Brake ON..
Them meatbombs love to climb over the gear on their way out or even stand on them now and then.. they get pi$$ed off when they stand on the gear and the wheel throws em off..
Hence landing with the parking brake on is not a good way to impress the boss...
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Posts: 503
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slight tangent, but what about (in a PA28) leaning the mixture instead of carb heat hot. That's scarey if you haven't noticed it!!
Cypher
Your checklist is short, to the point , and meets the unique needs of your operation, sounds like good airmanship to
me. Although I always thought the objective of every splatter
enabler was to get the #@^%$#^&$ jumpers gone as fast as possible, hence wouldn't be it be better to leave the brake off
Snigs
If the student whips the mixture back instead of the carb heat , I don't think you will need to wait for the pre-landing checklist to find out
. The Last time a student did that to me I screamed
" OH MY GOD WE ARE GOING TO DIE , GET THE ENGINE GOING, GET THE ENGINE GOING !!! " To his credit he did the engine failure checklist, figured out what he did , got everything thing squared away and said. "That was mean you freaked out to get me rattled". I replied "thats right you were rattled but you still remembered to do the drills and fixed the problem". He learned two big lessons.
1. Think before you push/pull/turn anything in the cockpit
2. The importance of having the emergencies drills down cold, because when bad things happen your brain initially freezes solid, Having the drills to give you a place to start is a big help to get the thinking process working.
I guess it was a bit mean but the the expression on his face was priceless
Your checklist is short, to the point , and meets the unique needs of your operation, sounds like good airmanship to
me. Although I always thought the objective of every splatter
enabler was to get the #@^%$#^&$ jumpers gone as fast as possible, hence wouldn't be it be better to leave the brake off
Snigs
If the student whips the mixture back instead of the carb heat , I don't think you will need to wait for the pre-landing checklist to find out
. The Last time a student did that to me I screamed " OH MY GOD WE ARE GOING TO DIE , GET THE ENGINE GOING, GET THE ENGINE GOING !!! " To his credit he did the engine failure checklist, figured out what he did , got everything thing squared away and said. "That was mean you freaked out to get me rattled". I replied "thats right you were rattled but you still remembered to do the drills and fixed the problem". He learned two big lessons.
1. Think before you push/pull/turn anything in the cockpit
2. The importance of having the emergencies drills down cold, because when bad things happen your brain initially freezes solid, Having the drills to give you a place to start is a big help to get the thinking process working.
I guess it was a bit mean but the the expression on his face was priceless
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason for the brakes off check on the likes of c152 and pa28 is to check the pressure and ensure they are not on for landing, also take note that on some aircraft activating the parking brake decreases rudder deflection which may hinder spin recovery, the grob 115 comes to mind!
Remember also that if you land a tail wheel aircraft with the brakes on the results are likely to be much more catastrophic compared to doing same with a tricycle undercarriage (i.e you might end up upside-down having tipped the aircraft up on its nose!). On a tricycle undercarriage you might blow the tyres or damage them but not a lot more.
And yes, they are "Pre-Landing Checks" because you might do a straight in approach and never fly downwind.
I too have observed a student place the brake lever to park in error for applying the first stage of flap!
Incidentally, I teach never to set the park brake having lined up - it's too easy to forget, especially if you are taking off on ice or wet grass and the resulting poor acceleration is not good for performance! I believe it was at Alaska many years ago where a DC8 attempted take off on an icy runway with the brake brake set to ON with dire consequences and hence, in my experience, the park brake is never set to ON after lining up with most airlines etc.
And yes, they are "Pre-Landing Checks" because you might do a straight in approach and never fly downwind.
I too have observed a student place the brake lever to park in error for applying the first stage of flap!
Incidentally, I teach never to set the park brake having lined up - it's too easy to forget, especially if you are taking off on ice or wet grass and the resulting poor acceleration is not good for performance! I believe it was at Alaska many years ago where a DC8 attempted take off on an icy runway with the brake brake set to ON with dire consequences and hence, in my experience, the park brake is never set to ON after lining up with most airlines etc.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about (in a PA28) leaning the mixture instead of carb heat hot
My ear caught the engine starting to run rough, and my instinct was to undo whatever it was I'd just done. The mixture was full rich again before the engine had a chance to cut out. I confessed to my instructor when I got back, but there's no real advice he could give except for being more careful next time. I know the 300-odd hours I've logged since then isn't a huge amount in the big scheme of things, but I've never moved the wrong lever or knob in any aircraft in those 300-odd hours.
FFF
--------------
I've put the park brake on in an Islander instead of L.H. carby heat. The lever is next to the C/heat AND moves in the same direction and locks with a similar sideways detente. Realised what I'd done & corrected it but you never know, there's always next time....
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, what a response from Big Pistons...
All I can say is that BP, thank god I didn't learn to fly with you!
I had an instructor who taught me how to be a professional pilot.
If you think that the correct course of action towards your student was to lose control of the situation and start screaming and shouting then shame on you. I would recommend you seriously consider a career change! Something more suited to your outbursts under pressure!
It seems from your own words, after 5000 hrs, its not going to happen to you. Well then Mr Invincible, when you do eventually land with the brakes on either by your own negligence or a students, just think back to this thread as you burst your tyres and skid off the runway...
Who was it that said,' When flying, always expect the unexpected?' He must have been a wise man and a professional Pilot that leaves little to chance.
If the worse is going to happen, lets reduce the risk.
Oh and Chuck, glad to have been of assistance and if you want a refresher to come up to my level of ability you only have to ask!!
Happy flying!!
All I can say is that BP, thank god I didn't learn to fly with you!
I had an instructor who taught me how to be a professional pilot.
If you think that the correct course of action towards your student was to lose control of the situation and start screaming and shouting then shame on you. I would recommend you seriously consider a career change! Something more suited to your outbursts under pressure!
It seems from your own words, after 5000 hrs, its not going to happen to you. Well then Mr Invincible, when you do eventually land with the brakes on either by your own negligence or a students, just think back to this thread as you burst your tyres and skid off the runway...
Who was it that said,' When flying, always expect the unexpected?' He must have been a wise man and a professional Pilot that leaves little to chance.
If the worse is going to happen, lets reduce the risk.
Oh and Chuck, glad to have been of assistance and if you want a refresher to come up to my level of ability you only have to ask!!
Happy flying!!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sale
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you think that the correct course of action towards your student was to lose control of the situation and start screaming and shouting then shame on you. I would recommend you seriously consider a career change! Something more suited to your outbursts under pressure!
" OH MY GOD WE ARE GOING TO DIE , GET THE ENGINE GOING, GET THE ENGINE GOING !!! " To his credit he did the engine failure checklist, figured out what he did , got everything thing squared away and said. "That was mean you freaked out to get me rattled". I replied "thats right you were rattled but you still remembered to do the drills and fixed the problem". He learned two big lessons.
I'll have to try that on my students
FIS
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FIS
And you consider this is the correct way to train your students?? I feel sorry for them.
With the cost of flying today I would have thought they would expect professional instruction, not some childish behaviour in the cockpit.
If I were your student I would not tollerate such behaviour.
And you consider this is the correct way to train your students?? I feel sorry for them.
With the cost of flying today I would have thought they would expect professional instruction, not some childish behaviour in the cockpit.
If I were your student I would not tollerate such behaviour.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DP, I think there was a bit of sarcasm in FIS' post.
BPF, why did you tell him that the engine had failed? Normally an unexpected silence from the donk causes enough of a heart flutter. Surely recognising the problem quickly is the most important reaction, since the emergency drills should be well ingrained.
The technique of putting people under as much pressure as possible does work well as you can never tell exactly how someone will react in a real emergency.
I don't see anything wrong with what BPF did, my job is to teach people to fly safely, not to win popularity contests and to be honest at times if my students like me, then I'm not doing my job correctly.
They usually understand why you've seemingly been an a*se when you explain the reasons down the pub.
BPF, why did you tell him that the engine had failed? Normally an unexpected silence from the donk causes enough of a heart flutter. Surely recognising the problem quickly is the most important reaction, since the emergency drills should be well ingrained.
The technique of putting people under as much pressure as possible does work well as you can never tell exactly how someone will react in a real emergency.
I don't see anything wrong with what BPF did, my job is to teach people to fly safely, not to win popularity contests and to be honest at times if my students like me, then I'm not doing my job correctly.
They usually understand why you've seemingly been an a*se when you explain the reasons down the pub.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
parking brakes
If anyone still wishes to argue that to check the brakes prior to landing is superfluous then they should read this months Pilot magasine "I Learned About Flying From........" and the report published within the latest GASIL.
Anyone else wishing to re-invent the wheel, write on I can't wait to hear the nonsense!
Anyone else wishing to re-invent the wheel, write on I can't wait to hear the nonsense!
This will be my last words on this subject as I think this post has run its course.
With respect to my pretending to wig out in the cockpit , I thought ( and still think ) that for that student at that time, it was a good teaching tool and at the end of the exercise I truly beleve he gained a measure of confidence in his ability to handle emergencies,( not to mention paying more attention to what knob he is pulling! ) that he would not otherwise had. Nevertheless it is situationally dependant and there would be only be a limited set of circumstances this scenario would be appropriate for.
With respects to the brakes off check I have heard nothing which will cause me to change my mind that this check is unnecesary
in the context of post number one, which is the operation of your typical light flying club type aircraft. I still believe that the call
brakes ------ pedals firm
provides a sufficent check of that aircraft system and is likely to catch any likely system abnormality. Since it is obviously impracticle to have a check list that would cover every possible abnormality I think particularly in the high work load environment of the phase of flight where the prelanding checklist is done, the checks have to strike a balance between covering the essential items but not being so involved and lengthly that it detracts from flying the aircraft. Therefore I came to the opinion in I say again the operation of your typical light flying club type aircraft ,the brakes off check is not required.
As it happens I have yet to fly an aircraft or aircraft operation where this check is necessary. However it is entirely possible that in future I may add the brakes off check for valid operational reasons.
So Divergent Phugoid et al if your have thought through the issue and come to the conclusion that this is the best way to operate then good for you. I must note that over the years when I have challenged pilots on why the did something ( the run up mixture check is a good example ) often the best they could offer was because "I always did it" or " somebody told me to " and really had no idea why they were completing th action.
But you know what the best part of this forum is ? It has made me think about things. I can guarentee, I never would have put this level of thought into this one issue if it had not been brought up and for that reason I intend to contribute to and learn from this forum
With respect to my pretending to wig out in the cockpit , I thought ( and still think ) that for that student at that time, it was a good teaching tool and at the end of the exercise I truly beleve he gained a measure of confidence in his ability to handle emergencies,( not to mention paying more attention to what knob he is pulling! ) that he would not otherwise had. Nevertheless it is situationally dependant and there would be only be a limited set of circumstances this scenario would be appropriate for.
With respects to the brakes off check I have heard nothing which will cause me to change my mind that this check is unnecesary
in the context of post number one, which is the operation of your typical light flying club type aircraft. I still believe that the call
brakes ------ pedals firm
provides a sufficent check of that aircraft system and is likely to catch any likely system abnormality. Since it is obviously impracticle to have a check list that would cover every possible abnormality I think particularly in the high work load environment of the phase of flight where the prelanding checklist is done, the checks have to strike a balance between covering the essential items but not being so involved and lengthly that it detracts from flying the aircraft. Therefore I came to the opinion in I say again the operation of your typical light flying club type aircraft ,the brakes off check is not required.
As it happens I have yet to fly an aircraft or aircraft operation where this check is necessary. However it is entirely possible that in future I may add the brakes off check for valid operational reasons.
So Divergent Phugoid et al if your have thought through the issue and come to the conclusion that this is the best way to operate then good for you. I must note that over the years when I have challenged pilots on why the did something ( the run up mixture check is a good example ) often the best they could offer was because "I always did it" or " somebody told me to " and really had no idea why they were completing th action.
But you know what the best part of this forum is ? It has made me think about things. I can guarentee, I never would have put this level of thought into this one issue if it had not been brought up and for that reason I intend to contribute to and learn from this forum
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 23rd Jan 2004 at 06:19.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sussex
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know this post has nearly run its course, but why do we check our brake pressure first and then lower the undercarriage? Surely it would make sense to check the brakes after the undercarriage was down??? As an aside I did suffer brake failure once in a twin, on one side only! By checking downwind as part of the pre-landing checks, I knew I had the problem and therefore was able to deal with it by landing as slowly as possible and as short as possible to maximise available runway for my asymmetric barking deceleration...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hants, UK
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lady In Red:
Good question, and that's why when I'm teaching or flying a twin or any retractable I change the order to be:
Undercarriage Down
Brakes off and pressure checked.
It would be unfortunate if, in the process of the gear lowering, one of the hydraulic lines had been ripped off or punctured and the first you know about it is when you head off to one side of the runway with only one brake working!
The replies so far have just about covered it. The BUMPPFICHH or whatever are taught for generic checks to ensure that when we fly different types later the seeds are sown to prevent missing something. If we adjust those basics correctly then safety is improved.
Of course to be certain we should use a printed checklist to ensure we miss nothing, but we all know that most of us do pre-landing checks from memory, so something memorable drilled in at the student stage is useful.
Good question, and that's why when I'm teaching or flying a twin or any retractable I change the order to be:
Undercarriage Down
Brakes off and pressure checked.
It would be unfortunate if, in the process of the gear lowering, one of the hydraulic lines had been ripped off or punctured and the first you know about it is when you head off to one side of the runway with only one brake working!
The replies so far have just about covered it. The BUMPPFICHH or whatever are taught for generic checks to ensure that when we fly different types later the seeds are sown to prevent missing something. If we adjust those basics correctly then safety is improved.
Of course to be certain we should use a printed checklist to ensure we miss nothing, but we all know that most of us do pre-landing checks from memory, so something memorable drilled in at the student stage is useful.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just can't resist.
So here goes.
Divergent P.
If I decide to take you up on that offer to retrain me. what do you charge for the training?
And will I be able to up my rates with this new found skill?
Chuck
So here goes.
Divergent P.
If I decide to take you up on that offer to retrain me. what do you charge for the training?
And will I be able to up my rates with this new found skill?
Chuck
