Your routes into Flight Testing
Thread Starter
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
From: UK
Nowhere in the UK I'm afraid at BEng / BSc level (as many people will know, this is a long time grouch of mine!), although there are MSc options.
Globally, ERAU may well be the best option, they should offer aeronautical / areospace engineering first degrees - see what can be patched together from existing modules. Something along the same lines *might* be do-able if you talk actively to the OU, although I'd not hold out an enormous amount of hope in that direction.
The lack of any distance learning first degree in either mechanical or aeronautical engineering in the UK personally I regard as scandalous, but to date my numerous efforts to persuade various universities to start offering one have not fallen on fertile ground!
G
Globally, ERAU may well be the best option, they should offer aeronautical / areospace engineering first degrees - see what can be patched together from existing modules. Something along the same lines *might* be do-able if you talk actively to the OU, although I'd not hold out an enormous amount of hope in that direction.
The lack of any distance learning first degree in either mechanical or aeronautical engineering in the UK personally I regard as scandalous, but to date my numerous efforts to persuade various universities to start offering one have not fallen on fertile ground!
G
We offer distance learning masters degrees - but the students must attend labs throughout the year. It is also the reason why we do not offer distance learning PhDs.
For what it’s worth, I too would like to see these subjects offered as distance learning undergrad degrees – but they must keep the practical work included.
Cheers,
eP.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
That is generally the objection that I've heard - however the OU (for example) manages to run degrees in biology by distance learning, so I'd regard it as a problem to be solved rather than a showstopper. The difficulty then is to find somebody with both the resources and will to solve the problems! So far, I've failed miserably in that.
G
G
Thread Starter
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
From: UK
That is generally the objection that I've heard - however the OU (for example) manages to run degrees in biology by distance learning, so I'd regard it as a problem to be solved rather than a showstopper. The difficulty then is to find somebody with both the resources and will to solve the problems! So far, I've failed miserably in that.
G
G
I personally cannot see why this can't be done on a larger scale with a wider selection of courses. For example, our undergrad teaching labs go unused from July-October. A great opportunity to get some distance learners in! Although the majority of academics in my group see July-October as their intensive research period where they do not have to suffer the interruptions of students.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 71
Likes: 8
From: Earth
I'm not actually in test flight, so perhaps my input is not really useful for this thread, but my few cents (or pennies) worth.
I qualified as an aeronautical engineer, but couldn't find long term work due to a downturn. Did some financial qualifications, went to work for a listed company doing strategic planning, marketing, mergers & acquisitions and so on. Got my PPL, took up aerobatics, bought an aeroplane.
My basic love was still flying, and I still had a desire to get into test work. I spoke to some of the people on this list, got some good advice. Also spoke to a well known local test pilot who gave me some hard but good advice. Firstly, he said that trying to get into test work from outside aviation was pointless. If you are not close to the door, when it opens you won't get through. I took a contract position in aero engineering - same pay, lower perks, but better job satisfaction. After two years the employer then sent me on a short operational test course, was a great learning experience. Most important, a learning experience I would not have got if I had been outside the industry.
The second bit of advice I got was to be careful about academic courses. Experience counts beyond the initial course. He said that test work was a combination of academic and practical. If you can't work with the practical, academics is going to be a waste of time. On the short course I went on, I saw brilliant engineers who struggled to write down a single data point in flight. If I was paying the bills, I'd also demand practical experience from people I hired.
In my case, I don't know what the future holds. Maybe I'll become an FTE, maybe I won't. But I do think the advice I was given was sound.
What do the experts think?
I qualified as an aeronautical engineer, but couldn't find long term work due to a downturn. Did some financial qualifications, went to work for a listed company doing strategic planning, marketing, mergers & acquisitions and so on. Got my PPL, took up aerobatics, bought an aeroplane.
My basic love was still flying, and I still had a desire to get into test work. I spoke to some of the people on this list, got some good advice. Also spoke to a well known local test pilot who gave me some hard but good advice. Firstly, he said that trying to get into test work from outside aviation was pointless. If you are not close to the door, when it opens you won't get through. I took a contract position in aero engineering - same pay, lower perks, but better job satisfaction. After two years the employer then sent me on a short operational test course, was a great learning experience. Most important, a learning experience I would not have got if I had been outside the industry.
The second bit of advice I got was to be careful about academic courses. Experience counts beyond the initial course. He said that test work was a combination of academic and practical. If you can't work with the practical, academics is going to be a waste of time. On the short course I went on, I saw brilliant engineers who struggled to write down a single data point in flight. If I was paying the bills, I'd also demand practical experience from people I hired.
In my case, I don't know what the future holds. Maybe I'll become an FTE, maybe I won't. But I do think the advice I was given was sound.
What do the experts think?
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Switzerland
I see your point, but if you become a hiring manager, don't aggravate a chicken and egg situation. How can I get any experience if nobody will let me fly because I've got no experience?
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
From: Nirvana South
From talking to the guys doing their BSc at the AFB that they also do practical lab work at the training center - plus, of course, the majority are following up what they already do on the job i.e. mechs take Mechanical degrees & sparkies do Electrical. Remembering back to the often unsupervised practicals at college this has to be just as effective.
[G. This is probably as interesting a subject as any we have recently but this sub-thread isn't really "How I got into FT" - perhaps you could split it off?]
[G. This is probably as interesting a subject as any we have recently but this sub-thread isn't really "How I got into FT" - perhaps you could split it off?]
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Thread Starter
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
From: UK
I'll bump this one last time to see if anyone else would like to contribute. It's been a fascinating thread, with some extremely useful info being provided.
I'd like to once again thank all those who constructively contributed to this thread.
All the best,
scruggs
(formerly easyPilot, but I changed username because people kept emailing me asking if I worked to for easyJet
).
I'd like to once again thank all those who constructively contributed to this thread.
All the best,
scruggs
(formerly easyPilot, but I changed username because people kept emailing me asking if I worked to for easyJet
).
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: SP,Brasil
Hello to you all. Here's my story...
-BS. Aeronautical Studies
-Flew for a few different airlines. (Furloughed a couple of times).
-Invited to undergo flight test school for a year.
-Flight testing since then. (Still learning a ton, by the way.)
In other words, I have never dreamt of becoming a TP. I was offered a position because I was in the right place at the right time. The company was happy to have me because of my airline experience, and I was happy to finally leave the airliners (got a little bit bored). I'm loving every second of this job. I believe my path would not be the norm, though.
Take care,
Mork
-BS. Aeronautical Studies
-Flew for a few different airlines. (Furloughed a couple of times).
-Invited to undergo flight test school for a year.
-Flight testing since then. (Still learning a ton, by the way.)
In other words, I have never dreamt of becoming a TP. I was offered a position because I was in the right place at the right time. The company was happy to have me because of my airline experience, and I was happy to finally leave the airliners (got a little bit bored). I'm loving every second of this job. I believe my path would not be the norm, though.
Take care,
Mork
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hello all
Scruggs, interesting thread ! Here's my story so far.
Got a degree in engineering then slowly progressed through various flying qualifications whilst holding down a sequence of interesting engineering jobs, mostly in systems & instrumentation.
I've now got a CPL / Frozen ATPL and am working as a full-time engineer and part-time flying instructor. So I'm doing lots of flying (which I love) and lots of engineering (which keeps my brain free of rust and pays reasonably) but still looking for that magic opportunity to combine these two things and do some flight test work. It definitely looks like it's a matter of "the right place at the right time", judging by a lot of the posts on this thread.
Until then, So, I'm really just a wanabe TP in truth, but maybe one day...
Good luck in your own endeavours.
Boltzman
Scruggs, interesting thread ! Here's my story so far.
Got a degree in engineering then slowly progressed through various flying qualifications whilst holding down a sequence of interesting engineering jobs, mostly in systems & instrumentation.
I've now got a CPL / Frozen ATPL and am working as a full-time engineer and part-time flying instructor. So I'm doing lots of flying (which I love) and lots of engineering (which keeps my brain free of rust and pays reasonably) but still looking for that magic opportunity to combine these two things and do some flight test work. It definitely looks like it's a matter of "the right place at the right time", judging by a lot of the posts on this thread.
Until then, So, I'm really just a wanabe TP in truth, but maybe one day...
Good luck in your own endeavours.
Boltzman
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, Australia
I generally cal myself a 'Test Engineer' now, as there isn't a lot of the fyling bit round where I am in Dununder. I was and FTE in the UK (that was the job title, but no formal qualifications).
Started with a dgeree in electronics (graduated about '95).
Got a job a certain UK rotary aircraft place (that narrows it down to about 1
) in the integration and test dept, working the full system integration rigs.
My mate was a part time flyer when they had avionics problems, so when Flight Test dept advertised she applied and badgered me into applying also (for which I will always be grateful), even if it was just to get introduced and maybe then try for the part time flyer position.
I think they were looking for more avionic types to go with all the aero/struct they already had (especially on the aircraft at the time, a navl one with a lot electrical bits), and I got a job there. Spent a couple of very entertaining years there, saw the work running down a bit, so jumped ship and made a big step to Oz.
I've got no formal training as such, except a few basic courses. A week long course on Flight Test Prionciples and Practice at one the TP schools was about it, the rest were avionics and equipment based.
If you can find someone to pay you through one of the courses, go for it, but I've never met anyone who did a full course that didn't do it through the military (though I'm sure they exist).
Like I said, not so much of the flying stuff at the moment, but I still get to work on aircraft. Thinking of moving on at the moment, so anyone who needs a test engineer down here......
Started with a dgeree in electronics (graduated about '95).
Got a job a certain UK rotary aircraft place (that narrows it down to about 1
) in the integration and test dept, working the full system integration rigs.My mate was a part time flyer when they had avionics problems, so when Flight Test dept advertised she applied and badgered me into applying also (for which I will always be grateful), even if it was just to get introduced and maybe then try for the part time flyer position.
I think they were looking for more avionic types to go with all the aero/struct they already had (especially on the aircraft at the time, a navl one with a lot electrical bits), and I got a job there. Spent a couple of very entertaining years there, saw the work running down a bit, so jumped ship and made a big step to Oz.
I've got no formal training as such, except a few basic courses. A week long course on Flight Test Prionciples and Practice at one the TP schools was about it, the rest were avionics and equipment based.
If you can find someone to pay you through one of the courses, go for it, but I've never met anyone who did a full course that didn't do it through the military (though I'm sure they exist).
Like I said, not so much of the flying stuff at the moment, but I still get to work on aircraft. Thinking of moving on at the moment, so anyone who needs a test engineer down here......
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
Boltzman,
We have a near identical background, I'm an aero graduate, hold a an instructors rating and like yourself funded my way through my fATPL while working in the engineering industry. Last summer I was over the moon to be offered an airworthiness position with a certain JAR 23 manufacturer, with the the stong possibility of doing FTE work (on the grounds of having completed the Flight Test Short Course on the Cranfield Jetstream as part of the degree). However it was made clear very quickly that only having single engine piston experience as a flight instructor there was no way I would progress to the left hand seat; furthermore although essentially a civil aircraft due to the fact that nearly all projets were on a military/annex 2 register then there was no way I would have been allowed to fly anything. The problem with the UK is we no longer have any complete civil airframe manufacturer hence this makes it near impossible for "civil" pilots to progress into flight testing.
You may get into flight testing at the PFA level, but you will soon realise that once you have invested the money into a frozen ATPL you can't afford to hang around in permanent engineering jobs waiting for an opportunity for FT work. Also the airlines will give you very little credit for the engineering. That is my experience, I am now concentrating on getting a run of the mill civil flying job.
We have a near identical background, I'm an aero graduate, hold a an instructors rating and like yourself funded my way through my fATPL while working in the engineering industry. Last summer I was over the moon to be offered an airworthiness position with a certain JAR 23 manufacturer, with the the stong possibility of doing FTE work (on the grounds of having completed the Flight Test Short Course on the Cranfield Jetstream as part of the degree). However it was made clear very quickly that only having single engine piston experience as a flight instructor there was no way I would progress to the left hand seat; furthermore although essentially a civil aircraft due to the fact that nearly all projets were on a military/annex 2 register then there was no way I would have been allowed to fly anything. The problem with the UK is we no longer have any complete civil airframe manufacturer hence this makes it near impossible for "civil" pilots to progress into flight testing.
You may get into flight testing at the PFA level, but you will soon realise that once you have invested the money into a frozen ATPL you can't afford to hang around in permanent engineering jobs waiting for an opportunity for FT work. Also the airlines will give you very little credit for the engineering. That is my experience, I am now concentrating on getting a run of the mill civil flying job.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: UK
portsharbourflyer,
Very interested to hear you have had a similar experience. Good luck in getting your airline job.
I've also seriously contemplated a move into line flying but I'm in an engineering job which pays the equivalent of good FO wages, and so am reluctant to do so, especially when I need to shell out for an MCC and a type rating. I think my move into FTE/TP work is likely to be, as you mention, through PFA or GA stuff and is likely to be more of a hobby than a career. I'm certainly not putting my life on hold for it. It is a great shame that the aviation industry in this country is not what it was, and that there aren't more openings for those of us who have not gone down the military route, however good our flying and engineering backgrounds. Most (if not all) of the CAA/PFA TPs I know are ex-military too.
CEng and a CPL aught to be a magic ticket to some really cool job, but that's aviation for you: it's a totally mad industry*.
* but has this magic appeal that's unlike anything else and keeps suckers like me hanging on in there !
Very interested to hear you have had a similar experience. Good luck in getting your airline job.
I've also seriously contemplated a move into line flying but I'm in an engineering job which pays the equivalent of good FO wages, and so am reluctant to do so, especially when I need to shell out for an MCC and a type rating. I think my move into FTE/TP work is likely to be, as you mention, through PFA or GA stuff and is likely to be more of a hobby than a career. I'm certainly not putting my life on hold for it. It is a great shame that the aviation industry in this country is not what it was, and that there aren't more openings for those of us who have not gone down the military route, however good our flying and engineering backgrounds. Most (if not all) of the CAA/PFA TPs I know are ex-military too.
CEng and a CPL aught to be a magic ticket to some really cool job, but that's aviation for you: it's a totally mad industry*.
* but has this magic appeal that's unlike anything else and keeps suckers like me hanging on in there !
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
Boltzman,
Sorry for the delay in posting, sounds as though you have a sensible outlook on things. I agree with many of your sentiments that and it seems you share the same frustrations as me with the UK aerospace industry.
I often see aero grads posting on here intending to do pilot training thinking the combination of flight training and an aero degree will lead to a test pilot career (infact I thought the same way after graduating), but after six or seven years in the aero industry my view is that test pilot positons on anything that is JAR/EASA 23 or above is the realms of the ex-military.
I certainly think in certain other countries it is possible to go FTE to TP but not in the UK, we don't have any complete airframe manufactures any more (some will say what about B-N, actually they don't tend to do many new airframes these days there are more into systems integration).
Yes I did have the opportunity to progress into FTE work, however I felt it was a case that I had to choose between FTE or civil pilot. Working in a permanent engineering job would only have allowed me to work one day a week as an instructor hence my rate of hours flown would be low. Secondly as a permanent airworthiness engineer / FTO my earnings were about half what I earn as a contract engineer hence would not have been able to afford to do me/ir renewals. Yes I am in a similar situation that a jet FO wages/turbo prop captain salary would be a slight pay cut, but only because I am a contractor; when I see what my equivalent technical grade in a permanent position earns the airline wages start to look more favourable. However good luck with whatever you decide.
Sorry for the delay in posting, sounds as though you have a sensible outlook on things. I agree with many of your sentiments that and it seems you share the same frustrations as me with the UK aerospace industry.
I often see aero grads posting on here intending to do pilot training thinking the combination of flight training and an aero degree will lead to a test pilot career (infact I thought the same way after graduating), but after six or seven years in the aero industry my view is that test pilot positons on anything that is JAR/EASA 23 or above is the realms of the ex-military.
I certainly think in certain other countries it is possible to go FTE to TP but not in the UK, we don't have any complete airframe manufactures any more (some will say what about B-N, actually they don't tend to do many new airframes these days there are more into systems integration).
Yes I did have the opportunity to progress into FTE work, however I felt it was a case that I had to choose between FTE or civil pilot. Working in a permanent engineering job would only have allowed me to work one day a week as an instructor hence my rate of hours flown would be low. Secondly as a permanent airworthiness engineer / FTO my earnings were about half what I earn as a contract engineer hence would not have been able to afford to do me/ir renewals. Yes I am in a similar situation that a jet FO wages/turbo prop captain salary would be a slight pay cut, but only because I am a contractor; when I see what my equivalent technical grade in a permanent position earns the airline wages start to look more favourable. However good luck with whatever you decide.
Thread Starter
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
From: UK
Thanks once again to all who have posted.
So in reading all the replies, I have formed the opinion that it is better to get hired by a company that has an FT department, and then make the transition to that department. This rather than waiting for the holy grail of "trainee FTE wanted" to be advertised.
Do you agree with this statement guys? Or have I, as usual, completely missed the point!
Cheers,
S
So in reading all the replies, I have formed the opinion that it is better to get hired by a company that has an FT department, and then make the transition to that department. This rather than waiting for the holy grail of "trainee FTE wanted" to be advertised.
Do you agree with this statement guys? Or have I, as usual, completely missed the point!
Cheers,
S
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
Well try to aim for an airworthiness position or something related to flight dynamics; these are more likey to lead to flight test engineering role than other specialisations.
Joined: Aug 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 345
Likes: 2
From: UK
What a good summary! (And I'm a Rote, so substitute a bit of 'flapping around' for 'pulling G'.)
Re point 6, remember to distinguish between Comprehensible Aerodyanamics and Incomprehensible Aerodynamics.
Re point 6, remember to distinguish between Comprehensible Aerodyanamics and Incomprehensible Aerodynamics.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 6
From: La Belle Province
If there's someone out there teaching Comprehensible Aerodynamics someone better 'name names' so that the culprit can be identified, and then tarred and feathered. How are we supposed to maintain the mystique if people go around explaining things?
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
From: Nirvana South
"If there's someone out there teaching Comprehensible Aerodynamics someone better 'name names' so that the culprit can be identified, and then tarred and feathered. How are we supposed to maintain the mystique if people go around explaining things?"
Careful there - you've been getting dangerously close to doing that yourself. Maybe you need a couple of weeks back in the hot house? (28 C already today) instead of the Great White North.
Careful there - you've been getting dangerously close to doing that yourself. Maybe you need a couple of weeks back in the hot house? (28 C already today) instead of the Great White North.
