Flight Testing at Cranfield
Thread Starter
Flight Testing at Cranfield
Hello there,
I am currently studying towards an aerospace degree at Southampton, and in a few weeks we are treated to a flight test course at Cranfield in Jetsreams. I am looking forward to this obviously, but my question is as follows. As someone who wishes to be a test pilot someday, either by becoming an FTE or otherwise (i have read your sticky threads), is there anything I could ask to do apart from the set course to gain experience? The only reason I ask is that I wouldn't want to miss out on the chance to experience something else at Cranfield that would be beneficial to my aim.
Many thanks,
Ginge
I am currently studying towards an aerospace degree at Southampton, and in a few weeks we are treated to a flight test course at Cranfield in Jetsreams. I am looking forward to this obviously, but my question is as follows. As someone who wishes to be a test pilot someday, either by becoming an FTE or otherwise (i have read your sticky threads), is there anything I could ask to do apart from the set course to gain experience? The only reason I ask is that I wouldn't want to miss out on the chance to experience something else at Cranfield that would be beneficial to my aim.
Many thanks,
Ginge
Not sure there's anything I can think off offhand, I'm sure like any other aeronautical training, you'll be working your **** off on the Cranfield FT course and probably won't have any spare time if you are doing it properly.
If you've some time in advance, reading up on some basic flight test techniques will do you some favours - see if your library has Darrol Stinton's "Flying Qualities and Flight Testing of the Aeroplane". If you can't get that, have a rummage around the net and download FAA's "AC23-8" which is their flight test guide for fixed wing aircraft, that'll provide similar (but less readable) advice.
Also however, could I make a request of you. Like many others I did that course early in my training, but from what I understand you'll be one of the first to do it in Cranfield's new flying-lab (I think they've gone from a rather elderly Jetstream Mk.1 to a rather larger Jetstream 31 plus a new FTI suite) and presumably they've to a fair extent re-written the course around the new aircraft. If once you've done it you'd like to post a write up of the course, what you covered and learned, and any opinions of it, a lot of us would be very interested to read it.
Best of luck,
G
N.B. Hard to prove, but I think I've probably met more Southampton Aero graduates in the UK flight test community than graduates of any other degree - you're starting in the right place.
If you've some time in advance, reading up on some basic flight test techniques will do you some favours - see if your library has Darrol Stinton's "Flying Qualities and Flight Testing of the Aeroplane". If you can't get that, have a rummage around the net and download FAA's "AC23-8" which is their flight test guide for fixed wing aircraft, that'll provide similar (but less readable) advice.
Also however, could I make a request of you. Like many others I did that course early in my training, but from what I understand you'll be one of the first to do it in Cranfield's new flying-lab (I think they've gone from a rather elderly Jetstream Mk.1 to a rather larger Jetstream 31 plus a new FTI suite) and presumably they've to a fair extent re-written the course around the new aircraft. If once you've done it you'd like to post a write up of the course, what you covered and learned, and any opinions of it, a lot of us would be very interested to read it.
Best of luck,
G
N.B. Hard to prove, but I think I've probably met more Southampton Aero graduates in the UK flight test community than graduates of any other degree - you're starting in the right place.
Thread Starter
Thanks very much, i'll have a look for those things and have a read. I'll do my best to provide you with some useful information about the course as well - there's a write up to be done, as expected, so I can post the relevant parts from that.
The N.B. was very encouraging too
.
Cheers
Ginge
The N.B. was very encouraging too
.Cheers
Ginge
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Southampton Flight Testers
Genghis,
good point. I did Aero at Southampton and also have noticed how many of us ended up in flight test.
GB,
my advice to you while you're at Cranfield; talk to your instructors about their industry experience. Most TPs and FTEs fall ass backwards into flight testing; it's a difficult job to position yourself for, but not impossible. For what it's worth, I'd say that the Cranfield course was the most productive week of my entire degree. Enjoy it and please do tell us what the course now consists of.
One thing I will say; be aware that many academic flight test courses have a heavy emphasis on stability and performance, but a very high percentage of modern flight test work concerns avionics testing. I'd like to see more systems testing taught acedemically if only to educate engineering managers that avionics testing is NOT a ridealong activity
good point. I did Aero at Southampton and also have noticed how many of us ended up in flight test.
GB,
my advice to you while you're at Cranfield; talk to your instructors about their industry experience. Most TPs and FTEs fall ass backwards into flight testing; it's a difficult job to position yourself for, but not impossible. For what it's worth, I'd say that the Cranfield course was the most productive week of my entire degree. Enjoy it and please do tell us what the course now consists of.
One thing I will say; be aware that many academic flight test courses have a heavy emphasis on stability and performance, but a very high percentage of modern flight test work concerns avionics testing. I'd like to see more systems testing taught acedemically if only to educate engineering managers that avionics testing is NOT a ridealong activity
One thing I will say; be aware that many academic flight test courses have a heavy emphasis on stability and performance, but a very high percentage of modern flight test work concerns avionics testing. I'd like to see more systems testing taught acedemically if only to educate engineering managers that avionics testing is NOT a ridealong activity
G
(Also a Southampton Aero graduate, just in case that wasn't obvious).
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The Avionics versus Stability and Control training debate is certainly an interesting one.
In my view it is very important to teach avionics testing as thoroughly as possible because, as has been said, there is so much avionics testing done.
But, and it is a big but, on a young or development aircraft it is quite easy to trip over a stability and control issue when you least expect it (say doing ‘avionic’ stuff) especially with FBW. If that happens you can lose the aeroplane if the pilot is inexperienced/poorly educated in stability and control issues.
In my view it is very important to teach avionics testing as thoroughly as possible because, as has been said, there is so much avionics testing done.
But, and it is a big but, on a young or development aircraft it is quite easy to trip over a stability and control issue when you least expect it (say doing ‘avionic’ stuff) especially with FBW. If that happens you can lose the aeroplane if the pilot is inexperienced/poorly educated in stability and control issues.
It might be argued that P&HQ testing should, quite reasonably, to be the main province and specialism of the TP. Avionics and systems testing needs a TP, but perhaps can and should be much more under the planning and control of a specialist FTE? (By which I mean probably an avionics or systems engineer who has been ALSO trained in Flight Test practices and principles.)
But, let's face it, you need to get P&HQ right first, since if the flight platform aint up to the job, there's little point in pursuing the test programme (and as John quite rightly points out, is far more likely to lead to the loss of an aircraft than an avionics failure, particularly during flight test).
G
N.B. I'm in the middle of one of these at the moment, a test programme where we've hit some fundamental handling problems with the airframe, and have deliberately not progressed to any significant systems - or in our case primarily performance testing until we can make the aeroplane fly properly. Who would have thought that in the 21st century we'd hit aeroelastic aileron reversal of all things !
But, let's face it, you need to get P&HQ right first, since if the flight platform aint up to the job, there's little point in pursuing the test programme (and as John quite rightly points out, is far more likely to lead to the loss of an aircraft than an avionics failure, particularly during flight test).
G
N.B. I'm in the middle of one of these at the moment, a test programme where we've hit some fundamental handling problems with the airframe, and have deliberately not progressed to any significant systems - or in our case primarily performance testing until we can make the aeroplane fly properly. Who would have thought that in the 21st century we'd hit aeroelastic aileron reversal of all things !
Thread Starter
Should I be worried if I don't quite understand this discussion? My Cranfield course finishes on the 24th of June, so i'll post soon after that with the details of what it involved (just thought i'd let you know so people didn't think i'd forgotten).
Whilst in such lofty company though, I would like to ask another question about the usefulness of a language. I have recently selected my options for next year, but am now considering trying to include studying German as well. Is this a useful quality for a test pilot, or would I be better off focusing on my Airvehicle Systems and Design theme a little more?
Nice to hear from some soton chaps, as well as the P1127 test pilot
.
Ginge
Whilst in such lofty company though, I would like to ask another question about the usefulness of a language. I have recently selected my options for next year, but am now considering trying to include studying German as well. Is this a useful quality for a test pilot, or would I be better off focusing on my Airvehicle Systems and Design theme a little more?
Nice to hear from some soton chaps, as well as the P1127 test pilot
.Ginge
I shouldn't worry unduly about the level of discussion - these technical side debates are one of the charms of Pprune, but can leave the relative outsider a little bemused. That said, we probably owe you a bit of explanation....
Flight testing is not a single homogenous subject. Whilst there is inevitable a relatively straightforward trade of Test Pilot, since they have to be able to handle anything that is asked of the aeroplane and it's testing, a lot of the detailed planning and analysis of flight testing is done by FTEs. Any FTE comes from some particular background - it might be systems, avionics, handling qualities, and we tend to specialise. Usually, Handling Qualities FTEs are closest to the TPs, for the unsurprising reason that handling qualities is the subject that most draws upon a Test Pilots peculiar skills. It also tends to be HQ people running training establishments like ETPS. This has arguably led to a view in much of the FT world that performance and handling qualities (and especially handling qualities) is the be-all and end-all, and that anything else is a "ride along". For light aircraft testing (my own specialism) this is fine, but for bigger more complex aircraft it's not really true any more since the enormous complexity of systems on a modern aircraft like A380 or Typhoon (to pick two at random) means that although P&HQ must be right, so too must a huge raft of systems assessment, which can potentially take far more time and analysis to get right.
On the other topic, I'm not sure how well equipped I am to answer meaningfully on languages, since I haven't worked much outside the English speaking world. Speaking for myself, I didn't elect to do a second language within my degree, on the grounds that opportunities to study languages are far easier to find outside a university than the technical subjects that were also available to me there - but that's just me.
G
N.B. For what it's worth, I know one FTE and one TP who both went to work for Pilatus (in German Switzerland) and didn't actually learn any German until well after they'd got there.
Flight testing is not a single homogenous subject. Whilst there is inevitable a relatively straightforward trade of Test Pilot, since they have to be able to handle anything that is asked of the aeroplane and it's testing, a lot of the detailed planning and analysis of flight testing is done by FTEs. Any FTE comes from some particular background - it might be systems, avionics, handling qualities, and we tend to specialise. Usually, Handling Qualities FTEs are closest to the TPs, for the unsurprising reason that handling qualities is the subject that most draws upon a Test Pilots peculiar skills. It also tends to be HQ people running training establishments like ETPS. This has arguably led to a view in much of the FT world that performance and handling qualities (and especially handling qualities) is the be-all and end-all, and that anything else is a "ride along". For light aircraft testing (my own specialism) this is fine, but for bigger more complex aircraft it's not really true any more since the enormous complexity of systems on a modern aircraft like A380 or Typhoon (to pick two at random) means that although P&HQ must be right, so too must a huge raft of systems assessment, which can potentially take far more time and analysis to get right.
On the other topic, I'm not sure how well equipped I am to answer meaningfully on languages, since I haven't worked much outside the English speaking world. Speaking for myself, I didn't elect to do a second language within my degree, on the grounds that opportunities to study languages are far easier to find outside a university than the technical subjects that were also available to me there - but that's just me.
G
N.B. For what it's worth, I know one FTE and one TP who both went to work for Pilatus (in German Switzerland) and didn't actually learn any German until well after they'd got there.
Thread Starter
That makes sense - it's sensible to check that you can fly the aircraft before you check that the computer can fly the aircraft - thanks for the explanation Genghis.
Strangely enough, one of the reasons I am considering German over French is because Pilatus is in a German speaking country. I reckon working for them probably beats saving up for your own PC9 . The other reason is that having given up French six years ago, i'm probably not quite ready to apply for Jacques Rosay's job yet .
Kind regards
GBM
Strangely enough, one of the reasons I am considering German over French is because Pilatus is in a German speaking country. I reckon working for them probably beats saving up for your own PC9
. The other reason is that having given up French six years ago, i'm probably not quite ready to apply for Jacques Rosay's job yet .Kind regards
GBM
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I administer the Cranfield course at another University, so what I'm about to say has to be viewed from that perspective.
First, the Cranfield team are excellent. Extremely knowledgeable, highly experienced, very friendly. Having said that they work bloody hard when they come to me (our students do the course from Glasgow Airport). My students get 2 hours' worth of ground school per day for 3 days. This means that they only get to speak to the test pilot on the 4th day for the end-of-course debrief. Cranfield have in the past flown up to 6 sorties per day, so the crew are really too busy to speak to the students preflight, and even post-flight and I discourage my students from doing so. One or two of them will go up front but I've never known the Cranfield guys to send them away 'cos they're too busy.
Second, what you actually do is a function of your University - I may stand to be corrected but I believe my institution is the only one to do what might be called the 'full' course - pressure error corrections; lift, drag and performance; static stability and certification; dynamic stability (modes of motion). Within that we do have an Avionics demo, usually GPS/ILS comparisons on the way back in. Other institutions do various subsets of the full course. My students then have a degree examination in which they'll have to answer questions based on the flight test course - I'm even able to frame a parameter estimation problem based on the flight test data from the modes of motion demo, even although Cranfield don't do parameter estimation with the students (parameter estimation is a black art that allows extraction of stability and control derivatives from flight test).
Third, they're on the first season with the new aeroplane, so not everything might work! Serviceability seemed pretty good when they came to us in March.
Finally, I would encourage you strongly to seek them out and ask questions - just pick your moment. They want you to get the absolute maximum out of the course, and your institution will have spent a lot of money so I'm sure that they would much rather you were active rather than passive.
Oh - the most important thing. Enjoy!
First, the Cranfield team are excellent. Extremely knowledgeable, highly experienced, very friendly. Having said that they work bloody hard when they come to me (our students do the course from Glasgow Airport). My students get 2 hours' worth of ground school per day for 3 days. This means that they only get to speak to the test pilot on the 4th day for the end-of-course debrief. Cranfield have in the past flown up to 6 sorties per day, so the crew are really too busy to speak to the students preflight, and even post-flight and I discourage my students from doing so. One or two of them will go up front but I've never known the Cranfield guys to send them away 'cos they're too busy.
Second, what you actually do is a function of your University - I may stand to be corrected but I believe my institution is the only one to do what might be called the 'full' course - pressure error corrections; lift, drag and performance; static stability and certification; dynamic stability (modes of motion). Within that we do have an Avionics demo, usually GPS/ILS comparisons on the way back in. Other institutions do various subsets of the full course. My students then have a degree examination in which they'll have to answer questions based on the flight test course - I'm even able to frame a parameter estimation problem based on the flight test data from the modes of motion demo, even although Cranfield don't do parameter estimation with the students (parameter estimation is a black art that allows extraction of stability and control derivatives from flight test).
Third, they're on the first season with the new aeroplane, so not everything might work! Serviceability seemed pretty good when they came to us in March.
Finally, I would encourage you strongly to seek them out and ask questions - just pick your moment. They want you to get the absolute maximum out of the course, and your institution will have spent a lot of money so I'm sure that they would much rather you were active rather than passive.
Oh - the most important thing. Enjoy!
