GOE dummy filing
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GOE dummy filing
I heard today that GO-FLY ops have permission from CFMU to dummy file their ATC plans. Does anyone know if this is true? Does this mean that when GOE ops merge with EZY ops, EZY will be able to dummy file as well?
When airlines obtain computer access to the CFMU system, they sign a service agreement agreeing not to dummy file, so what’s to stop every airline now dummy filing and bringing the CFMU system to its knees?
Terry F
When airlines obtain computer access to the CFMU system, they sign a service agreement agreeing not to dummy file, so what’s to stop every airline now dummy filing and bringing the CFMU system to its knees?
Terry F
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I very much doubt that they do have permission to do so, though it wouldn`t totally surprise me if they did file dummy plans irrespective of the service agreement.
Are you sure that you didn`t confuse your information with the fact that CFMU does offer a test system to check for route validity?
In any case if it should be true, this would unnecessarily increase enroute CTOTs for everybody else, since ghost flight plans are blocking a CTOT were other (real flights) might fill in.
Cheers
fcit
Are you sure that you didn`t confuse your information with the fact that CFMU does offer a test system to check for route validity?
In any case if it should be true, this would unnecessarily increase enroute CTOTs for everybody else, since ghost flight plans are blocking a CTOT were other (real flights) might fill in.
Cheers
fcit
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Terry..
I see you have also posted this on the ATC forum. What’s your point. Are they breaking the rules or not, if so report them to the relevant authorities. Your post expresses a slight hind of bitterness is the thought of turning Orange that bad..
I see you have also posted this on the ATC forum. What’s your point. Are they breaking the rules or not, if so report them to the relevant authorities. Your post expresses a slight hind of bitterness is the thought of turning Orange that bad..
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I heard they don't even have a dedicated ATC cell !!! 
So if true, the airlines that do play by the rules suffer from idiots who don't know the system !
I also heard that GOE bods will be responsible for the new EZY Ops set-up, and are choosing flight planning eqpt without consulting current EZY staff !
So if true, the airlines that do play by the rules suffer from idiots who don't know the system !
I also heard that GOE bods will be responsible for the new EZY Ops set-up, and are choosing flight planning eqpt without consulting current EZY staff !
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Just to clarify, we at sunny STN use all the tools at our disposal,
We don't have a dedicated ATC cell because we don't need one, hope this clears it up for you!
PP
PS see you soon
We don't have a dedicated ATC cell because we don't need one, hope this clears it up for you!
PP
PS see you soon
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Paperpusher...
You don't have a dedicated ATC cell?
How the heck do you manage on
a bog standard CFMU/Swanwick day?
We have at least 2 bods sat here tearing
their hair out to shave minutes off delays
and it pays huge dividends!!!
Who do u know in BRU
and what do I have to do for an easy life?
On 2nd thoughts, I'll pass on that !
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Dyslexia Rooles KO
gost-rider if you havnt worked it out maybe we shoulkd change the subject just to dummys for your benefit!
Last edited by ghost-rider; 29th Oct 2002 at 02:02.
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pp - if you don't have a dedicated ATC cell then that's just fine. obviously your operation allows it.
However, given a few days looking after the orange ones you will soon see how important it is over here and believe me it would soon fall to pieces without it.
fluorescent - Until then it all seems a little off that decisions on the future structure and systems of the combined fleet are being made in STN without ANY consultation involving the present orange team.
To be encouraged to dummy file (if that is what's going to happen), goes against our ethics. we have a very good relationship (I think) with those in BRU brought about by the annual trips that everyone in this office makes to Eurocontrol and the religious adherence to procedures and mutual cooperation on a daily basis.
Perhaps you could advise on the usefullness of the CIA too -Apparently we are losing the RCA??
However, given a few days looking after the orange ones you will soon see how important it is over here and believe me it would soon fall to pieces without it.
fluorescent - Until then it all seems a little off that decisions on the future structure and systems of the combined fleet are being made in STN without ANY consultation involving the present orange team.
To be encouraged to dummy file (if that is what's going to happen), goes against our ethics. we have a very good relationship (I think) with those in BRU brought about by the annual trips that everyone in this office makes to Eurocontrol and the religious adherence to procedures and mutual cooperation on a daily basis.
Perhaps you could advise on the usefullness of the CIA too -Apparently we are losing the RCA??
Last edited by cloudchaser; 30th Oct 2002 at 05:21.
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Lab Monkey ...
Last edited by rammit; 30th Oct 2002 at 05:19.
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Hi all, first I do not admit to dummy filing! and we in STN are all able to access CFMU from our PC's we all know what to do and how to do it, between us we do fine.
Cloudchaser, the decisions you talk about impact on us also, and trust me I probably Know less than you.
Rgds PP
Cloudchaser, the decisions you talk about impact on us also, and trust me I probably Know less than you.
Rgds PP
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Hi,
I will basiclly repeat what I've stated in the ATC Forum, but I will expand a bit since this is a forum more dedicated to flight planning.
NOBODY is allowed to double file.
Since, and chances are we have talked on the phone, you all know that you can get away with it IF you are smart and quick.
Question. Does it really pay off?
90% of the times, AO's trying to find a different route on something like a LEAL-EGCC or a LEMD-LGAV, their plan will fail automatic processing.
Guys, a piece of advise from someone who has been picking up the phone at IFPU2 since the very beggining: Call us and say "I have a huge delay, can you find me a route around it". We WILL get it for you; (be nice when asking, we have some "special" characters, but you are bound to get that everywhere).
It might mean a BO of 1000KG more, but at least you get another option. We do it everyday for the Lear, Gufstream and Falcon pilots calling from their mobiles while sitting on the doorstep of the aircraft. No reason we would not do it for the guys flying the heavier iron.
Only yesterday, a guy from a German charter called with 185 minutes delay. With a re-routing, we shaved 37 NM of is route and gave him a 0 minutes delay. It works.
If you do decide to cheat, like I said above, make sure you do it right. On occasion, when picking up a record FIVE flight plans for a single flight, I went to the trouble of cancelling all of them and making sure that this gentleman got a huge delay.
Me an arrogant Euro SOB? Sure...
Cheers
I will basiclly repeat what I've stated in the ATC Forum, but I will expand a bit since this is a forum more dedicated to flight planning.
NOBODY is allowed to double file.
Since, and chances are we have talked on the phone, you all know that you can get away with it IF you are smart and quick.
Question. Does it really pay off?
90% of the times, AO's trying to find a different route on something like a LEAL-EGCC or a LEMD-LGAV, their plan will fail automatic processing.
Guys, a piece of advise from someone who has been picking up the phone at IFPU2 since the very beggining: Call us and say "I have a huge delay, can you find me a route around it". We WILL get it for you; (be nice when asking, we have some "special" characters, but you are bound to get that everywhere).
It might mean a BO of 1000KG more, but at least you get another option. We do it everyday for the Lear, Gufstream and Falcon pilots calling from their mobiles while sitting on the doorstep of the aircraft. No reason we would not do it for the guys flying the heavier iron.
Only yesterday, a guy from a German charter called with 185 minutes delay. With a re-routing, we shaved 37 NM of is route and gave him a 0 minutes delay. It works.
If you do decide to cheat, like I said above, make sure you do it right. On occasion, when picking up a record FIVE flight plans for a single flight, I went to the trouble of cancelling all of them and making sure that this gentleman got a huge delay.
Me an arrogant Euro SOB? Sure...
Cheers
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Routechecker,thanks for the advice which I accept but it is also important to consider the practical and economical aspect of rerouting from the operators point of view.
For instance in major uk airports in a non tankering situation it can take up to 1 hour just to get a bowser back to an a/c for the 1000kgs you mention, by which time you may as well sit with the original delay and have a much shorter flight time, as well as make a saving on fuel costs.
This type of scenario may be the cause of increased cheating from operators as options become more limited.
I do not advocate cheating as a solution, I just wanted to emphasise the increasing complexity of achieving an effective reroute from congested airports into ever restrictive airspace.
For instance in major uk airports in a non tankering situation it can take up to 1 hour just to get a bowser back to an a/c for the 1000kgs you mention, by which time you may as well sit with the original delay and have a much shorter flight time, as well as make a saving on fuel costs.
This type of scenario may be the cause of increased cheating from operators as options become more limited.
I do not advocate cheating as a solution, I just wanted to emphasise the increasing complexity of achieving an effective reroute from congested airports into ever restrictive airspace.
From my early days as a trainee ATCO I was taught that dummy filing was not allowed for two main reasons:
1: It obviously 'clogs' the system and reduces capacity.
2: If filing using another callsign so you don't get 'spotted', there is the potential for callsign confusion with A.N. Other operator, with your randomely chosen alpha numerics.
I prefer to do it properly, but on very rare and few occasions CFMU/Swanick have suggested a dummy which has worked.
1: It obviously 'clogs' the system and reduces capacity.
2: If filing using another callsign so you don't get 'spotted', there is the potential for callsign confusion with A.N. Other operator, with your randomely chosen alpha numerics.
I prefer to do it properly, but on very rare and few occasions CFMU/Swanick have suggested a dummy which has worked.
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Rescue 3
The "slot computer" (CASA) does live in Brussels but the flight data that's fed into it comes both from IFPU1 in Brussels and IFPU2 in Bretigny. Re-routing wise, ETFMS (FMD has changed it's name) have more limited capabilities than IFPS. The reroutings are done in the IFPU's using the normal tools; the Ifps system and brain power.
Frosty Hoar
Point taken on the fuel example. I still remember the hectic days when I worked in Ops myself until I got wise and ran away to Euroland.
Reoutings can normally be found without a major change of flown milage. Of course, if your destination is for example Manchester and the regulation is in the close vicinity of Manchester Airport, theres no way you are going to get out of it.
Cheers
The "slot computer" (CASA) does live in Brussels but the flight data that's fed into it comes both from IFPU1 in Brussels and IFPU2 in Bretigny. Re-routing wise, ETFMS (FMD has changed it's name) have more limited capabilities than IFPS. The reroutings are done in the IFPU's using the normal tools; the Ifps system and brain power.
Frosty Hoar
Point taken on the fuel example. I still remember the hectic days when I worked in Ops myself until I got wise and ran away to Euroland.
Reoutings can normally be found without a major change of flown milage. Of course, if your destination is for example Manchester and the regulation is in the close vicinity of Manchester Airport, theres no way you are going to get out of it.
Cheers
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Rescue 3
Sorry, I did not fully understand your query the first time around. Yes you are absolutly right, it all comes down to wild guessing. If the route via sector A is giving e.g. 180 min delay, we will just try a rerouting via sector B. 0 min delay, everybody is happy. 240 min delay and the s..... hits the fan? Not really. We will try sector C, if that dont work sector D, and if it comes down to all options expended, back to option A with a call to ETFMS, explaining the situation, and back to square one. The operator takes the delay and no complaints.
Hoppefully after we migrate from Unix to Windows and most CFMU applications will be integrated into a single CHMI, we (might) will be able to run scenarios on a flight per flight basis. Don't wait up for it. The future is comming but it's taking it's time to get here.
Cheers
Sorry, I did not fully understand your query the first time around. Yes you are absolutly right, it all comes down to wild guessing. If the route via sector A is giving e.g. 180 min delay, we will just try a rerouting via sector B. 0 min delay, everybody is happy. 240 min delay and the s..... hits the fan? Not really. We will try sector C, if that dont work sector D, and if it comes down to all options expended, back to option A with a call to ETFMS, explaining the situation, and back to square one. The operator takes the delay and no complaints.
Hoppefully after we migrate from Unix to Windows and most CFMU applications will be integrated into a single CHMI, we (might) will be able to run scenarios on a flight per flight basis. Don't wait up for it. The future is comming but it's taking it's time to get here.
Cheers
