New ICAO Flt Operations Officer/Aircraft Dispatcher Course
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New ICAO Flt Operations Officer/Flight Dispatcher Course
The Glasgow College of Nautical Studies, Aviation Studies Department has confirmed that they will be offering the
ICAO Flight Operations Officer/Aircraft Dispatcher's licence course from September of this year. This distance learning course will be based on three modules covering all the subjects required in the ICAO Doc 7192 D3. The College will be working with a number of major UK airlines to ensure the subject matter meets the ICAO requirements and covers current European airline needs, e.g Eurocontrol ATFM etc.
This course should meet the requirements that the CAA have proposed for flight operations officer training in the future.
My hope is that the ICAO FOO licence course will become the industry training standard in the UK.
What's your views on the above?
See http://www.glasgow-nautical.ac.uk/
ICAO Flight Operations Officer/Aircraft Dispatcher's licence course from September of this year. This distance learning course will be based on three modules covering all the subjects required in the ICAO Doc 7192 D3. The College will be working with a number of major UK airlines to ensure the subject matter meets the ICAO requirements and covers current European airline needs, e.g Eurocontrol ATFM etc.
This course should meet the requirements that the CAA have proposed for flight operations officer training in the future.
My hope is that the ICAO FOO licence course will become the industry training standard in the UK.
What's your views on the above?
See http://www.glasgow-nautical.ac.uk/
Last edited by no sig; 30th May 2002 at 10:19.
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GRICH
The Aircraft Dispatchers licence refered to is not aircraft ramp dispatch, but flight dispatch as in flight planning, flight watch and operational control. However, if you want to move into ops then this is the first step to getting there.
The Aircraft Dispatchers licence refered to is not aircraft ramp dispatch, but flight dispatch as in flight planning, flight watch and operational control. However, if you want to move into ops then this is the first step to getting there.
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Mutt
I spoke with the College yesterday and they are working on a web site update, contact them direct on the numbers listed, Peter Bainbridge is the head of aviation studies.
I spoke with the College yesterday and they are working on a web site update, contact them direct on the numbers listed, Peter Bainbridge is the head of aviation studies.
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glad to see it all going ahead, i am interested in doing this course pending costs. do you think we are going to be going in the directions of other nations in that it will become compulsary to have such a licence in order to be employed - it cant be a bad thing, and will hopefully push up the wages. at the moment i cant finnancially afford to be in this trade/airline much longer if they dont improve 
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Honestly, I cannot see the UK CAA mandating a licence for Flight Operations Officers. The CAA FODCOM 9/2001 specifically excludes that option.
However, what is encouraging about this is that at least they intend to set a benchmark for training requirements which meets international standards. Also, the proposal is that your airline's Ops manaual Part D will include this as a minimum standard for FOO's training.
If the ICAO syllabus becomes a UK standard then it de facto becomes a minimum requirement. Not least of which, I believe it will enhance the professionalism of FOO's and, over time, will earn FOO's a much great level of respect within the industry.
Honestly, I cannot see the UK CAA mandating a licence for Flight Operations Officers. The CAA FODCOM 9/2001 specifically excludes that option.
However, what is encouraging about this is that at least they intend to set a benchmark for training requirements which meets international standards. Also, the proposal is that your airline's Ops manaual Part D will include this as a minimum standard for FOO's training.
If the ICAO syllabus becomes a UK standard then it de facto becomes a minimum requirement. Not least of which, I believe it will enhance the professionalism of FOO's and, over time, will earn FOO's a much great level of respect within the industry.
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Details of the course are now available on the following web site.
http://www.glasgow-nautical.ac.uk/
see Transport Studies
It has just occurred to me that some might be forgiven for thinking I am in for a 'back hander' for plugging the ICAO course, no I'm not. In truth my motives are to plug Flight Operations Officer training, not just the ICAO course. The CAA, and as I have heard through IFALDA this week, the JAA also, are moving to a much more formalised approach to European and UK Ops training. For those who know me from BGFOO days, there have been many before and after me who have tried and tried to get the recognition that Ops bods need a standard training syllabus.
Finally, it does appear that that requirement for FOO training has dawned on the CAA and as I believe on the JAA.
http://www.glasgow-nautical.ac.uk/
see Transport Studies
It has just occurred to me that some might be forgiven for thinking I am in for a 'back hander' for plugging the ICAO course, no I'm not. In truth my motives are to plug Flight Operations Officer training, not just the ICAO course. The CAA, and as I have heard through IFALDA this week, the JAA also, are moving to a much more formalised approach to European and UK Ops training. For those who know me from BGFOO days, there have been many before and after me who have tried and tried to get the recognition that Ops bods need a standard training syllabus.
Finally, it does appear that that requirement for FOO training has dawned on the CAA and as I believe on the JAA.
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I am currently an FOO for an airline and have ended up with the task of writing the training manual for the Ops department based on the new FOO/FD syllabus, primarily due to my having gotten my frozen ATPL and so being familiar with both the flying theory and the FOO/FD role.
The ICAO syllabus in my opinion is VERY OTT. how many FOO's ever need to know about D, E and F layers of the ionosphere for instance or the formation of the ICAO body. There is an awful lot of niff naff and trivia in there and so I have ended up using the syllabus purely as a guide and missing out the stuff deemed by myself and my manager to be irrelevant to the role of FOO/FD in our company.
If you were to stick to the ICAO syllabus and know the subject in the kind of detail it seems to require then you would probably be just as well to go and do your ATPL course at the same time!!
Hope that helps
Boxjockey
The ICAO syllabus in my opinion is VERY OTT. how many FOO's ever need to know about D, E and F layers of the ionosphere for instance or the formation of the ICAO body. There is an awful lot of niff naff and trivia in there and so I have ended up using the syllabus purely as a guide and missing out the stuff deemed by myself and my manager to be irrelevant to the role of FOO/FD in our company.
If you were to stick to the ICAO syllabus and know the subject in the kind of detail it seems to require then you would probably be just as well to go and do your ATPL course at the same time!!
Hope that helps
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The Value of FOO FD qualifications
Whilst I agree anything that can be done to raise the profile (and salary)of Ops control staff,what about good old hands on experience.My fear is ,that companies will go for people who have the bits of paper,and ignore those of us who have been digging them out the **** for years.I have been through the all to common experience of watching a wizz kid with all the degrees licences bells and whistles,freeze ,when confronted with serious program disruption,caused by tech a/c or weather/atc/crew hours
problems.And who then gets the program back on its wheels???
well we all know the answer to that dont we.
I am not knocking the need for formal qualifications,but there needs to be a balance.
problems.And who then gets the program back on its wheels???
well we all know the answer to that dont we.
I am not knocking the need for formal qualifications,but there needs to be a balance.
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Let's start at the beginning...
Flight Operations Officer’s/Flight Dispatcher’s work in a very technical environment (at least most do), they make decisions which may/do affect flight safety they also make decisions which have a considerable impact on the economics of the airline they work for. FOO's/Dispatcher’s must interact with aircrew at the same level which most often requires technical knowledge equal to that of the aircrew. Airlines rely on FOO/Dispatcher’s to have sufficient knowledge of flight operations to be able to anticipate operational difficulties and be one step ahead of the aircrew. Ever wondered why the FAA Aircraft Dispatcher’s licence and the FAA ATPL licence written exams are the same exam paper?
The ICAO FOO/Flight Dispatcher’s licence course syllabus was updated 1998. That is the same ICAO which defines the standards for member states in terms of aircrew/air traffic licensing, procedures and operation of aircraft requirements. It IS the organisation which you in your ops room are impacted upon every day of your lives, from the format of the METAR and TAF you read to your crew, to the design and operational criteria which guides the layout of an airfield. ICAO is the international body, which sets the Standards we all operate to. Yes, JAROPS is also in there, but it all starts with ICAO and the Annexes. This is why in the UK CAA FODCOM 9/2001 the CAA references the ICAO syllabus as the standard to which UK airlines should be moving and including in part D of their operations manuals. This is recognition that your job requires a high degree of technical knowledge and that your role is firmly part of the airline's operational group.
So, is it surprising that the ICAO course for FOO/Dispatcher’s is comprehensive? It has to be, it is an international standard/recommendation that caters for the global requirement. You must appreciate that in the same way that a pilot sits an ATPL exam, which equips him/her with the knowledge for the rest of their flying career. That pilot may only be flying a twin engine air taxi operation from Liverpool to Southampton, but in the future he may be flying a B777 from London to Singapore, no one asks him to re-sit his licence do they? So to, there are Ops Officers who will start with the small air taxi outfit who will in future be flight planning that B777 over the pole or to the far east.
The course is about giving you the knowledge you will need at various times over the course of your career, it is NOT about your particular airline or what you do today. Also for most people entering airline operations this is the beginning of their career, I think most would agree that having a solid grounding in the flight operations aspects of an airline is foundation knowledge.
It is true that training needs to keep pace with the times and the ICAO Doc 7192 D3 which defines the syllabus is under constant review. It has been updated and I know there is work ongoing to ensure it keeps up with the times. But, as with all things, unless you understand the basics you will not understand the complex. The Glasgow College course is aiming to keep to the spirit and intent of the course and will be working with three UK airlines to make sure it meets todays needs. It will not contain astro-navigation, nor will it force you to learn the physics of the upper atmosphere or arcane navigational techniques, as one commentator put it. But is MUST, equip you to operate in a modern airline and to enable you to interact with aircrew on technical issues so that they have confidence in you advice or decisions.
Mutt.. The website has only just be put up and the course content is still being worked.
peterc... Don't confuse the need for the experience and street wise ops knowledge with the need for a foundation in technical subjects, you had to learn to read a TAF somewhere, you at one time had to figure out what an ATC flight plan was. The course is to give those starting out or already in the business that knowledge. It does not replace the need to recruit 'people' with the ability to work in a busy ops environment doing 6 things at once. Further, the second part of the ICAO FOO/FD syllabus requires on the job training to get the 'good old hand on' Ops room skills, you don't learn those from a book in any walk of life.
boxjockey... you've just done the knowledge ! so what is your point? Are you suggesting that what you learned in doing the ATPL was a waste of time? When was the last time one of your pilots had to consider the E and F layers. You are doing this for your company BECAUSE you have done your ATPL and now have the knowledge. As you point out you are focused on what YOUR Company needs, this is tailored training and perfectly reasonable. The ATPL and the ICAO FOO/Dispatchers licence are general qualification to meet the international aviation requirements, do a JAR ATPL and you need do nothing else, it covers it all, do the ICAO FOO course and it the same.
Sorry to ramble on, but this is important. Let's raise the standard in our ops rooms, let's give those wannabe's a place to start their ops studies and training. Let's get a qualifation in the UK which meets our needs and gives our job the recognition that it has long deserved.
Flight Operations Officer’s/Flight Dispatcher’s work in a very technical environment (at least most do), they make decisions which may/do affect flight safety they also make decisions which have a considerable impact on the economics of the airline they work for. FOO's/Dispatcher’s must interact with aircrew at the same level which most often requires technical knowledge equal to that of the aircrew. Airlines rely on FOO/Dispatcher’s to have sufficient knowledge of flight operations to be able to anticipate operational difficulties and be one step ahead of the aircrew. Ever wondered why the FAA Aircraft Dispatcher’s licence and the FAA ATPL licence written exams are the same exam paper?
The ICAO FOO/Flight Dispatcher’s licence course syllabus was updated 1998. That is the same ICAO which defines the standards for member states in terms of aircrew/air traffic licensing, procedures and operation of aircraft requirements. It IS the organisation which you in your ops room are impacted upon every day of your lives, from the format of the METAR and TAF you read to your crew, to the design and operational criteria which guides the layout of an airfield. ICAO is the international body, which sets the Standards we all operate to. Yes, JAROPS is also in there, but it all starts with ICAO and the Annexes. This is why in the UK CAA FODCOM 9/2001 the CAA references the ICAO syllabus as the standard to which UK airlines should be moving and including in part D of their operations manuals. This is recognition that your job requires a high degree of technical knowledge and that your role is firmly part of the airline's operational group.
So, is it surprising that the ICAO course for FOO/Dispatcher’s is comprehensive? It has to be, it is an international standard/recommendation that caters for the global requirement. You must appreciate that in the same way that a pilot sits an ATPL exam, which equips him/her with the knowledge for the rest of their flying career. That pilot may only be flying a twin engine air taxi operation from Liverpool to Southampton, but in the future he may be flying a B777 from London to Singapore, no one asks him to re-sit his licence do they? So to, there are Ops Officers who will start with the small air taxi outfit who will in future be flight planning that B777 over the pole or to the far east.
The course is about giving you the knowledge you will need at various times over the course of your career, it is NOT about your particular airline or what you do today. Also for most people entering airline operations this is the beginning of their career, I think most would agree that having a solid grounding in the flight operations aspects of an airline is foundation knowledge.
It is true that training needs to keep pace with the times and the ICAO Doc 7192 D3 which defines the syllabus is under constant review. It has been updated and I know there is work ongoing to ensure it keeps up with the times. But, as with all things, unless you understand the basics you will not understand the complex. The Glasgow College course is aiming to keep to the spirit and intent of the course and will be working with three UK airlines to make sure it meets todays needs. It will not contain astro-navigation, nor will it force you to learn the physics of the upper atmosphere or arcane navigational techniques, as one commentator put it. But is MUST, equip you to operate in a modern airline and to enable you to interact with aircrew on technical issues so that they have confidence in you advice or decisions.
Mutt.. The website has only just be put up and the course content is still being worked.
peterc... Don't confuse the need for the experience and street wise ops knowledge with the need for a foundation in technical subjects, you had to learn to read a TAF somewhere, you at one time had to figure out what an ATC flight plan was. The course is to give those starting out or already in the business that knowledge. It does not replace the need to recruit 'people' with the ability to work in a busy ops environment doing 6 things at once. Further, the second part of the ICAO FOO/FD syllabus requires on the job training to get the 'good old hand on' Ops room skills, you don't learn those from a book in any walk of life.
boxjockey... you've just done the knowledge ! so what is your point? Are you suggesting that what you learned in doing the ATPL was a waste of time? When was the last time one of your pilots had to consider the E and F layers. You are doing this for your company BECAUSE you have done your ATPL and now have the knowledge. As you point out you are focused on what YOUR Company needs, this is tailored training and perfectly reasonable. The ATPL and the ICAO FOO/Dispatchers licence are general qualification to meet the international aviation requirements, do a JAR ATPL and you need do nothing else, it covers it all, do the ICAO FOO course and it the same.
Sorry to ramble on, but this is important. Let's raise the standard in our ops rooms, let's give those wannabe's a place to start their ops studies and training. Let's get a qualifation in the UK which meets our needs and gives our job the recognition that it has long deserved.
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Thank you no Sig for your comprehensive reply, but who's gonna get more, peterc with years behind him but no qualifications, or someone with a year max, and your exams? some of your 'new' recruits are very worried, with all the other changes coming!
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Lab Monkey
The case I am making here is, of course, not airline specific, it is about the adoption of an internationally recognised minimum standard of training for an airline operations officer. And it is not 'my' course it is ICAO's recommendation.
Who gets paid what depends on the attitude of the airline you work for to qualifications and training. Expereince is of course essential. Just because you have passed a course in flight ops studies is no guide to your eventual competence in the ops room, what it does do however, is ensure you have a foundation of knowledge to build upon as you gain expereince. It is a starting point, just as the FAA licence is in the states, only difference is, in the states you don't get a job without it.
The case I am making here is, of course, not airline specific, it is about the adoption of an internationally recognised minimum standard of training for an airline operations officer. And it is not 'my' course it is ICAO's recommendation.
Who gets paid what depends on the attitude of the airline you work for to qualifications and training. Expereince is of course essential. Just because you have passed a course in flight ops studies is no guide to your eventual competence in the ops room, what it does do however, is ensure you have a foundation of knowledge to build upon as you gain expereince. It is a starting point, just as the FAA licence is in the states, only difference is, in the states you don't get a job without it.
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Crewing/Rostering Qualifications
Seems like there's a lot out there in the way of career progression and recognised qualifications for 'operations' staff but where do the poor relations crewing/rostering staff fit in? We also are responsible for doing our bit to ensure the company AOC is protected in compliance with the company FTL. I am sure there's nothing out there but if anyone knows of any relevant courses/qualifications would be most interested to hear. I know, i'm living in dreamworld. You can but live in hope!!!
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Earlier Comments on Technical Qualifcations
Where to start?
The ICAO 7192 course and Part A of the syllabus is intended to provide a technical background and a base of knowledge for Operations Staff. The technical section of the course is not and will not teach you to manage the movements of a fleet of aircraft. But, Part A will prepare you for the times when things go wrong and the technical side of our trade is needed.
Consider this:
Captain Scarlet flies for Airline A, he operates 3 sectors per day on a 6 on/3 off roster pattern. In a year he will operate 723 sectors.
Operations Officer Black also works for Airline A, he works a 4 on/4 off shift pattern and manages Operations Control for the airlines fleet of 5 aircraft each operating 6 sectors per day. In a year he will be responsible for the supervision of over 2500 sectors.
If a major problem occurs every 1000 sectors Black will see 2 a year, Captain Scarlet will see one every 2 years.
Captain Scarlet will have an ATPL and many years of experience to help him deal with the problem – why should Black not be trained to the same level, or at least a strong technical level.
Part B of 7192 deals with on the job training. Look at it this way, a pilot joins an airline with an ATPL, the airline gives him a type rating. Someone joins the same airline to work in Ops, he has the technical training 7192 specifies, it then becomes the airlines responsibility to train him on procedures and actions that are required for operational control and fleet management by that individual airline, procedures that will differ from airline to airline.
The technical training specified will serve to raise our profile with crews and better prepare our staff for the unexpected.
The ICAO 7192 course and Part A of the syllabus is intended to provide a technical background and a base of knowledge for Operations Staff. The technical section of the course is not and will not teach you to manage the movements of a fleet of aircraft. But, Part A will prepare you for the times when things go wrong and the technical side of our trade is needed.
Consider this:
Captain Scarlet flies for Airline A, he operates 3 sectors per day on a 6 on/3 off roster pattern. In a year he will operate 723 sectors.
Operations Officer Black also works for Airline A, he works a 4 on/4 off shift pattern and manages Operations Control for the airlines fleet of 5 aircraft each operating 6 sectors per day. In a year he will be responsible for the supervision of over 2500 sectors.
If a major problem occurs every 1000 sectors Black will see 2 a year, Captain Scarlet will see one every 2 years.
Captain Scarlet will have an ATPL and many years of experience to help him deal with the problem – why should Black not be trained to the same level, or at least a strong technical level.
Part B of 7192 deals with on the job training. Look at it this way, a pilot joins an airline with an ATPL, the airline gives him a type rating. Someone joins the same airline to work in Ops, he has the technical training 7192 specifies, it then becomes the airlines responsibility to train him on procedures and actions that are required for operational control and fleet management by that individual airline, procedures that will differ from airline to airline.
The technical training specified will serve to raise our profile with crews and better prepare our staff for the unexpected.
Any takers?