New ICAO Flt Operations Officer/Aircraft Dispatcher Course
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too late for me i'm afraid 
i've had to leave the ops world due to lack of income, lack of alternatives and a general lack of prospects at the mo, might have done it tho if given the chance earlier. one day hopefully i'll be to consider doing it again
i've had to leave the ops world due to lack of income, lack of alternatives and a general lack of prospects at the mo, might have done it tho if given the chance earlier. one day hopefully i'll be to consider doing it again
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Can somebody explain to me why I, or anybody else for that matter, should lash out a significant sum of money on a training course that appears to be of dubious value in an industry that is intent on not recognising Ops Staff as aviation professionals and consequently pays a derisory wage as a consequence.
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The role of a flight dispatcher is totally different between the USA and the UK. In the USA the position is licensed and holds an “almost” equal responsibility for flight safety as the Captain, especially in 121 operations, therefore the salary reflects the training and the responsibility.
If the salary is anything to go by in the UK, the position is treated with derision. I would therefore say that if a suitable qualification could be established and the responsibilities recognized, there would be a good argument for a major increase in salaries!
Mutt.
If the salary is anything to go by in the UK, the position is treated with derision. I would therefore say that if a suitable qualification could be established and the responsibilities recognized, there would be a good argument for a major increase in salaries!
Mutt.
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Mutt,
I understand the concept only too well, create a forum whereby Ops Staff employed in the civil aviation industry are afforded recognition for their expertise, after all this is certainly the case in North America and mainland Europe.
So why is it then that the UK insists on shabbily treating these people and paying them below what they deserve, at Norwich airport for example the flight briefing room bods get less than 9 grand and ramp tramps less than 12. Until something proactive is done you will always be poorly treated and regarded as cretins. I for one am amazed that trolley dollies are further up the food chain than Ops Bods!
For my part I intend to take the FAA course because its cheaper, established and world recognised and more importantly quicker to attain, then we'll see what the industry has to offer. If nothing worthwhile crops up then I'm outa there and off to pursue more worthwhile ventures.
I understand the concept only too well, create a forum whereby Ops Staff employed in the civil aviation industry are afforded recognition for their expertise, after all this is certainly the case in North America and mainland Europe.
So why is it then that the UK insists on shabbily treating these people and paying them below what they deserve, at Norwich airport for example the flight briefing room bods get less than 9 grand and ramp tramps less than 12. Until something proactive is done you will always be poorly treated and regarded as cretins. I for one am amazed that trolley dollies are further up the food chain than Ops Bods!
For my part I intend to take the FAA course because its cheaper, established and world recognised and more importantly quicker to attain, then we'll see what the industry has to offer. If nothing worthwhile crops up then I'm outa there and off to pursue more worthwhile ventures.
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Steady on MilOps. A bit of explanation. I trust you have read my previous post. For a start, the ICAO Flight Operations Officers/Flight Dispatchers Licence is an ICAO recommendation, in the UK for want of the wisdom, the CAA have never mandated the requirement. However, in the very near future they will amend CAP360 and JAA will follow, to reflect the need for the training of UK based Operations officers to be based on ICAO Doc 7192 D-3 Flight Ops Officers/Dispatchers Syllabus, this will be included in the Part D of the airlines Ops manual.
True it is not a Licence, however, it will I hope raise the standard of airline flight operations personnel training and, at long last, establish an industry standard in the UK. Something we have not had. As a holder of an FAA licence and as one intimately involved with the production of this course, I can tell you the ICAO course syllabus will give you a better all round grounding in Airline ops. I f you wish to work for FAA base operators then by all mean do the FAA ticket. By the way, I think you find the ICAO course at the Glasgow college is somewhat cheaper.
Also, Ops officers are not the bottom of the food chain. In most airlines you will find the salaries much higher then what you quote, I think you need to look further a field then NWI before judging the UK situation. My airline pays a starting salary in the region of £21 to 26 K per year for an experienced ops officer with qualifications.
True it is not a Licence, however, it will I hope raise the standard of airline flight operations personnel training and, at long last, establish an industry standard in the UK. Something we have not had. As a holder of an FAA licence and as one intimately involved with the production of this course, I can tell you the ICAO course syllabus will give you a better all round grounding in Airline ops. I f you wish to work for FAA base operators then by all mean do the FAA ticket. By the way, I think you find the ICAO course at the Glasgow college is somewhat cheaper.
Also, Ops officers are not the bottom of the food chain. In most airlines you will find the salaries much higher then what you quote, I think you need to look further a field then NWI before judging the UK situation. My airline pays a starting salary in the region of £21 to 26 K per year for an experienced ops officer with qualifications.
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21-26 big ones!!
If you ever start recruiting we'll have no one left!
Why do you think it is that even without a standard qualification to do the job that salaries differ so much from Airline to Airline?
I am an Ops Controller for a large company and earn alot less than that.
If you ever start recruiting we'll have no one left!
Why do you think it is that even without a standard qualification to do the job that salaries differ so much from Airline to Airline?
I am an Ops Controller for a large company and earn alot less than that.
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Hodgy
Ops and crewing staff in my airline, and indeed in most others, are the team that keeps the airline running day to day - need I even say that here. They are usually enpowered to make high value decisions and their ability to do the job has a marked impact upon safe operations and the economics of the airline. It's a very important job and reward goes with that. We pay for their skills and offer to train them further, we also link qualifcations with progress in the Company, no real mystery there.
As for a standard UK qualification, my hope is that the ICAO FOO/FD course will become that standard, it will in my airline.
Ops and crewing staff in my airline, and indeed in most others, are the team that keeps the airline running day to day - need I even say that here. They are usually enpowered to make high value decisions and their ability to do the job has a marked impact upon safe operations and the economics of the airline. It's a very important job and reward goes with that. We pay for their skills and offer to train them further, we also link qualifcations with progress in the Company, no real mystery there.
As for a standard UK qualification, my hope is that the ICAO FOO/FD course will become that standard, it will in my airline.
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All very valid points which i agree with and hopefully we will have the oppertunity to do the new ICAO course as I believe it is being considered by our management at the moment. I just hope that by completing it our salaries may become more inline with a company such as yours, which was my initial question of why there is such a variation between airlines on how much they pay the people that keep the airline running.
p.s any clues on who you work for?
All very valid points which i agree with and hopefully we will have the oppertunity to do the new ICAO course as I believe it is being considered by our management at the moment. I just hope that by completing it our salaries may become more inline with a company such as yours, which was my initial question of why there is such a variation between airlines on how much they pay the people that keep the airline running.
p.s any clues on who you work for?
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Training staff can only be a good thing, surely. Aircrew obviously have to be trained, so why shouldn't Ops/Crewing staff be recognised as being suitably trained?
Let's face it, it's the Ops/Crewing staff who have to predict, manage and maintain a calm sense of perspective when things go horribly wrong (as it so often does) and they should at least be recognised by their manager's for what they achieve every working day.
Training does help and will continue to help. Maybe some manager's should be sent on training courses, they might learn to be better manager's.......
Let's face it, it's the Ops/Crewing staff who have to predict, manage and maintain a calm sense of perspective when things go horribly wrong (as it so often does) and they should at least be recognised by their manager's for what they achieve every working day.
Training does help and will continue to help. Maybe some manager's should be sent on training courses, they might learn to be better manager's.......
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Hodgy
Naturally, salary will vary with the levels of responsibility. If you fly an Islander you're likely to earn much less than if you're a B777 pilot. So it is in other parts of the airline industry. Why one airline pays less is oft related to just that. Management of a high intensity commercial airline operation requires greater skills than say, the management of a flying club (no disrepect to those who do).
Naturally, salary will vary with the levels of responsibility. If you fly an Islander you're likely to earn much less than if you're a B777 pilot. So it is in other parts of the airline industry. Why one airline pays less is oft related to just that. Management of a high intensity commercial airline operation requires greater skills than say, the management of a flying club (no disrepect to those who do).
Last edited by no sig; 3rd Jul 2002 at 21:58.
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The non-flying "pilots"
I am a Flight De(i)spatcher/Flight Operations Officer, Non-Flying Pilot whatever you guys may say and we all need to stick together since very little has been done thru the people who are supposed to represent us (NOT on $$$ matters since one complements the other), and have done very little for it.
I visitted recently the EUFALDA and this organisation could at least encourage other national de(i)spatcher associations to prepare a credible presentation to the JAA to legislate on the need for a ground based workforce able to help the pilots in the air to make decisions or coordinate thier operations, and so avoiding certain perils up there. Some national organisations AGAIN have done very little to defend our class too. I say some NOT all, but I saw nothing in their website in that matter.
We are all supposed to be qualified people, we must master the performance of the aircraft the company operates and certain aspects of the same aircraft systems. We must have the brains to judge and quicken acertained decisions of different aspects as we all know specially the shift supervisor or leaders. We will be accountable for what we did NOT do and we were supposed to do. The only difference here is that we did NOT do SIMs and we are not up there flying.
Obviously, we do NOT have such strict Duty Time Limitations but we should have something to rule us. We work Morning, Afternoon and Night shifts. we also work when the rest of the world sleeps and vice versa.
I am not up there flying so close to the danger of having a skin cancer, etc., but I spend 8 hrs in front of a screen per shift, in a very demanding and intense environment, doing I do best working for the profit of the company. Like me, others perform the same way. This wears me off as I get older.
My sympathy goes out to those who are trying to walk after being years crawling.
Prepare something, a document and make your cases available to people who can do something. I would also like to see the national associations more involved in defending this class' rights. Indeed, pilots and their associations ought to support the people they should trust during the pre-flight briefing and while up there.
Someone has to start, and rather earlier than later. Come on guys with good writing skills and good reps go ahead.
We usually ear pilots say that a good approach is half of a good landing. Well, well, a good D(i)espatcher's job makes it so easy for the flying crews...
I visitted recently the EUFALDA and this organisation could at least encourage other national de(i)spatcher associations to prepare a credible presentation to the JAA to legislate on the need for a ground based workforce able to help the pilots in the air to make decisions or coordinate thier operations, and so avoiding certain perils up there. Some national organisations AGAIN have done very little to defend our class too. I say some NOT all, but I saw nothing in their website in that matter.
We are all supposed to be qualified people, we must master the performance of the aircraft the company operates and certain aspects of the same aircraft systems. We must have the brains to judge and quicken acertained decisions of different aspects as we all know specially the shift supervisor or leaders. We will be accountable for what we did NOT do and we were supposed to do. The only difference here is that we did NOT do SIMs and we are not up there flying.
Obviously, we do NOT have such strict Duty Time Limitations but we should have something to rule us. We work Morning, Afternoon and Night shifts. we also work when the rest of the world sleeps and vice versa.
I am not up there flying so close to the danger of having a skin cancer, etc., but I spend 8 hrs in front of a screen per shift, in a very demanding and intense environment, doing I do best working for the profit of the company. Like me, others perform the same way. This wears me off as I get older.
My sympathy goes out to those who are trying to walk after being years crawling.
Prepare something, a document and make your cases available to people who can do something. I would also like to see the national associations more involved in defending this class' rights. Indeed, pilots and their associations ought to support the people they should trust during the pre-flight briefing and while up there.
Someone has to start, and rather earlier than later. Come on guys with good writing skills and good reps go ahead.
We usually ear pilots say that a good approach is half of a good landing. Well, well, a good D(i)espatcher's job makes it so easy for the flying crews...
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Fractional,
"Well, well, a good D(i)espatcher's job makes it so easy for the flying crews...".
You are damn right!
After all, what would you (and I suppose most of us FOOs/dispatchers...) prefer? Getting bored on a 2, 4, 8 or 12 hour flight ... whatever, or getting some REAL excitement in Ops?
My choice is clear! And if any pilots are reading this post, I am NOT a wannabe pilot. Just love the job. Freakin' love it...
"Well, well, a good D(i)espatcher's job makes it so easy for the flying crews...".
You are damn right!
After all, what would you (and I suppose most of us FOOs/dispatchers...) prefer? Getting bored on a 2, 4, 8 or 12 hour flight ... whatever, or getting some REAL excitement in Ops?
My choice is clear! And if any pilots are reading this post, I am NOT a wannabe pilot. Just love the job. Freakin' love it...
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No Sig,
Thanks for your comprehensive reply, maybe, just maybe things could improve for Ops bods in civvy street. In the RAF we are regarded as ATC failures, but I digress. FYI I have looked considerably further than Norwich and apart from your airline I have not encountered anything above 16K and that includes shift allowance and in expensive areas to live to boot. I shall investigate Glasgow but am unconvinced that the money will be wisely invested.
Thanks for your comprehensive reply, maybe, just maybe things could improve for Ops bods in civvy street. In the RAF we are regarded as ATC failures, but I digress. FYI I have looked considerably further than Norwich and apart from your airline I have not encountered anything above 16K and that includes shift allowance and in expensive areas to live to boot. I shall investigate Glasgow but am unconvinced that the money will be wisely invested.
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MilOps
Ops Officers status and salaries vary widely accross the aviaiton spectrum, true £16K maybe the best you'll do at one airline, on the other hand you could easily start in at £20K odd with another, particularly if you have the expereince such as your RAF time. Also, Ops is not the only area where ops skills might be valuable, you might consider airport , airfield ops, nav - performance office etc. etc. The ICAO course would be a valuable addition to your re-settlement package , why not get your present employer to sponsor you? Good Luck what ever you choose.
Ops Officers status and salaries vary widely accross the aviaiton spectrum, true £16K maybe the best you'll do at one airline, on the other hand you could easily start in at £20K odd with another, particularly if you have the expereince such as your RAF time. Also, Ops is not the only area where ops skills might be valuable, you might consider airport , airfield ops, nav - performance office etc. etc. The ICAO course would be a valuable addition to your re-settlement package , why not get your present employer to sponsor you? Good Luck what ever you choose.
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Dispatchers
How nice to see such a comprehensive and rational reply.
Since doing the FAA dispatchers course, I have been more and more convinced that we should be going that way over here. I had great hopes when the FAA/JAA "integration" was promised - but, as always seems the way with "Euro" bureaucracy, it all got bogged down and lost the plot!
Despite BALPA reservations, the need for a qualified (licenced) dispatcher to handle all the aspects of flight operations is self evident! Crew duty times are getting shorter, aircraft legs longer and the technical aspects more complex.
Proper training will result in the professional respect for the job that is required. That means knowledge AND experience. The risk of losing your licence would also keep people on their toes.
In my work, I see all sorts of Operations staff - some good, some bad - and I just get the feeling that they would all prefer to go down this route.
Since doing the FAA dispatchers course, I have been more and more convinced that we should be going that way over here. I had great hopes when the FAA/JAA "integration" was promised - but, as always seems the way with "Euro" bureaucracy, it all got bogged down and lost the plot!
Despite BALPA reservations, the need for a qualified (licenced) dispatcher to handle all the aspects of flight operations is self evident! Crew duty times are getting shorter, aircraft legs longer and the technical aspects more complex.
Proper training will result in the professional respect for the job that is required. That means knowledge AND experience. The risk of losing your licence would also keep people on their toes.
In my work, I see all sorts of Operations staff - some good, some bad - and I just get the feeling that they would all prefer to go down this route.
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The course content looks like a watered down ATPL ground school course, and similar in content to the old C&G courses.
yawn!
How about a course that looks at real a/c ops. e.g. how to beat those slot restrictions, real crewing, etc
yawn!
How about a course that looks at real a/c ops. e.g. how to beat those slot restrictions, real crewing, etc
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Fly146
The course does contain CFMU/IFPS procedures and will have an operations control and crewing content. The rest of the syllabus is the the ICAO 7192 Flight Ops/Flight Dispacther requirement.
If this generates a 'yawn' then maybe you know it all already and the course isn't for you.
The course does contain CFMU/IFPS procedures and will have an operations control and crewing content. The rest of the syllabus is the the ICAO 7192 Flight Ops/Flight Dispacther requirement.
If this generates a 'yawn' then maybe you know it all already and the course isn't for you.
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FLY_146 If you had bothered to stay awake and read DOC 7192 you would know the ICAO syllabus is divided into 2 parts.
A technical section dealing with all of the performance, engineering, route planning and other aspects of our business, and a company related section for on the job training.
Currently in most of the UK's airlines you get plenty of Part 2 and very little of part 1.
A technical section dealing with all of the performance, engineering, route planning and other aspects of our business, and a company related section for on the job training.
Currently in most of the UK's airlines you get plenty of Part 2 and very little of part 1.
