Aircraft De.icing

[GRIZZLER]

Can anybody give me a rough idea on how many ltrs of de.ice fluid it would take to do wings and body on a AB330 in falling snow at -1 degrees........as i asked how much was put on an aircraft last night.....i was told just over 320 ltrs.

I cant think that with such a small amount the job was done correctly....as only mins before i had been in a de.ice rig putting between 700 and 800 ltrs on AB 320S wings and tail......in the same conditions.

There must be an amount that sounds correct for type of aircraft sprayed...give or take a few ltrs....but to me...320 did not seem enough....Glad i was not flying on it.

The engineer who signed it off said "Fluid is expensive stuff".....i said so is losing a plane!!!!

[UKSquiff]

That's quite scary really...It's the sort of comment made by people on Air Crash Investigation on NatGeo

[firefish]

If he states that you're good you can bet that you are, even if the commander has the final responsibility his head will roll too in the case of any incident related to insufficient de-icing. No two situations/conditions are the same and any comparison between two de-icing cases is moot.

What you should have been doing, if you felt insecure about if the de-icing was properly conducted, was getting out of your seat and checking it for yourself. Part of our job is taking other professionals words for granted, it is something we have to do as we have neither the skill nor the time to check every aspect or detail of a flight. However, it is our responsibility to check everything that we suspect may be wrong, either by ourselves or by seeking a second opinion from a professional.

If you felt the need to ask here if the amount of fluid was enough (post flight!!!) I can only assume that you didn't check, otherwise you would have known, and took off anyway. Now that's something that one really could have opinions about....

Edit: saw that you weren't part of the crew - sorry.

[hedgehopper]

Recommend minimum amount of fluid for anti-icing

wing tail total

A320 180 50 230
A321 180 50 230
A330 -200 480 100 580
-300 480 100 580

Source:
AEA Training Recommendations and Background Information for De-Icing/Anti-Icing of Aircraft on the Ground - 7th Edition August 2010

The amount to De-ice will vary upon conditions.

Regards HH

[GRIZZLER]

Air Craft De .ice

Myself and my de.ice buddy in the basket...if we are asked to de.ice...that is what we do....a tactile test ..then we spray until we cant see any more ice or snow on the parts of the plane that we were asked to do.....followed by another tactile test at the end.

after all, our name is on the paper work......if i am told by the engineer or any body else to be sparing and not use to much fluid i would not do it at all....i do not tell them how to do there job.......and yes i know it cost a lot of money.....but i dont get any of it.

ps dont do any anti icing so dont know much on that side of things.

[Dr Illitout]

Perhaps the engineer was saying it "Tounge in cheek"?
More often than not my fellow engineers and I have to battle with ground staff who don't want to do it!
We have to re qualify every year to supervise de icing. It some time seems to me that some of the ground staff hear have only the very basic training, if any.
Don't worry. When I'm supervising it, it get done right!

Rgds Dr I

[GRIZZLER]

DE.ICING

Well Dr Illitout ...you are not the only one that has to get passed out every year for de.icing........so do we......we also have to know the hold over times for the weather conditions that we are spraying in ie...frost.freezing fog, rain,snow...and so on and air temp.....so when was the last time you see the top of a 747 tail fin in the dark at -5 degrees or on top of a 146 tail plane....you cant with out a de.icer basket....we can so we know what the conditions are like up there.

I dont think that the AB 330 should have been de.iced and let go using only 320 ltrs.... the hold over time in those conditions on the paperwork i have to use only gives 15.min....(thats a type 2 fluid)and thats from the time you start the job....it took him longer than that to de.ice the total the aircraft.....even using that small amount.....and it still had to call up.push back and get to the runway.

last year in similar snowy conditions i was asked to de.ice a cargo 747 ...i told the captain what the hold over time was ......and that i would not be able to get round the plane and finish the job in 15 mins...it was up to him....it did not fly that day.....and i had a good nights sleep.

and as for supervise...how the hell can you do that from the ground...you cant see jack s**t.....unless you are a geeeraffe????.

and as a foot note i love de.icing......it makes a pleasant change from all the other jobs we do....been doing it for at least 14 years...maybe longer

and no the engineer was not talking tounge in cheek.

[tigger2k8]

Had any snow built up on the aircraft? (Significant amount?) While i cant comment on the A330 as i have never de-iced one.. on smaller jets such as the 737/A319/A320/A321 in frost between 150-230ltrs, in falling snow in which much hasnt built up between 300-400ltrs, in heavy snow in which theres about an inch of snow on the wings/fuselage (when the crew dont want to wait for it to be brushed) 550-750ltrs.. the above figures are what i personally use, i know some who use more or less..i did use 1800ltrs once on an A300 which was covered in snow

At the end of the day, everyone uses different amounts of fluid, some people use different spray settings.. ive seen 1200ltrs go on a 737-700 before in heavy snow. The way i see it is, if im signing for it, ill use as much as im happy with to be satisfied that the aircraft is ice/frost/snow free and safe for flight and if anyone pulls the old "cost" line which hasnt happened to me yet, ill set them straight

[GRIZZLER]

de.icing

tigger2k8 as i said before....on that same night in falling snow we were putting 700 to 800 ltrs on AB320s and they had only been on the ground for about 45 mins..........the AB330 had been sitting there for a couple of hours at least...

i am with you...if my names on the chit....it gets what it needs to get rid of the ice....or i will not do it......no engineer can tell what its like on top of the aircraft.

in fact in the early hours of the next morning we put over 700 ltrs on a small prop job saab that was doing a mail flight.....with the amount of ice that had built up on its wings and tail i cant see how you could have done it with less....unless you hit it with a big stick.

one other thing.....has any body heard about washing snow off with hot water ...then do the de.ice....sounds like a bad idea to me...never seen it done myself...but sombody did ask if we could do it???

[Piper19]

Some amounts of type II I remember from this week: 480, 604, 9??, 1045 and 1200
So it all depends I guess
Average was 45 min on grnd, very light snow falling

[tigger2k8]

Sorry Grizzler, had read it too quickly missed out on a few bits. Had you seen the finished job, was the person who was de-icing happy with it, did they say anything, are they long out of training? To be honest if i was doing it, there would have been 320ltr on each wing, not including the tail and fuselage but then i have always been very cautious. If you are concerned i would refer it to whoever is in charge of de-icing operations at your workplace

Yes i have heard of hot water de-icing, never saw it happened but as far as i know its used in some areas.. sounds risky, but to be honest you can blast the snow off for minimal cost (as airlines want this) then give it a quick spray with de-icing fluid, could probably save a a couple of hundred ltrs by doing it.. but it could leave you with one slippy apron...

[TOWTEAMBASE]

HEDGEHOPPER

7TH EDITION ?????? should that no be 27th ??? sounds like you got an out of date copy ;-0. well said GRIZZLER...i know what you say is true, ive seen it myself. maybe a comment or 2 to CHIRP could set your mind at rest

[hedgehopper]

TOWTEAMBASE

If you are a De-icing/Anti-icing certified operator, then I guess you got one or two questions wrong on your annual training?


FYI

http://files.aea.be/Downloads/AEA_TrainingMan_Ed7.pdf

and

http://files.aea.be/Downloads/AEA_Deicing_v25_revb.pdf

Not a 27 in sight!

Regards

HH

[boredcounter]

Hi guys

I do not fly, and I do not de-ice aircraft, I am however Ops.

I do have a serious question though.

Take type II (Generic) 50/50 mix, de-ice with no anti-ice.

A/C takes 500 Lts to be de-iced to everyones satisfaction.


Hold over time is not applicable.



What is the de-ice bill?
Is it billed as 250Lts of XXX TypeII or total used @ mix rate?




Cheers for answers,

bored

[groundagent]

What is the de-ice bill?
Is it billed as 250Lts of XXX TypeII or total used @ mix rate?

It would be billed as written in the SGHA. Normally reference to either a rig call out fee and a couple of rates for 100% de-icing fluid, 75/25 mix. Alternatively, no rig call out and a specified retainer and a higher rate for the fluid at different mixes.

Not certain, but I don't think 50/50 is used, but I am not a de-icer either so happy to be corrected . . .

GA

[spannersatcx]

depends on what type of fluid you are using Type 1, 2, 4, mix ratio 50/50, 75/25 or 100% and the manufacturer and ia it hot oe cold.

We have been using 75/25 hot type 2 Kilfrost ABC-K plus and the hold over times in snow at -1C is something like 1hr 25 mins. Many years ago with older type fluids you were wasting your time in snow but nowadays they have improved immensely.

Much would depend on if the wings were cold soaked or not, frosty before it snowed or not, or if it was just a light coating of snow, so to say 320 lts is not enough is completely unfounded.

I was responsible for the removing/deicing of a 744 last week in the snow and we used anything from 500-800 ltrs, no 2 a/c are the same. So could you do an A330 with 320 lts of course you could. Could you use 800 lts on an A320 you could but I would suggest unless there was 4 foot of snow on an extremely cold soaked wing I would say that was excessive and would be questioning the operator, after all I am the one signing the a/c out as fit to fly not the rig operator.

[Out Of Trim]

This year I have seen occasionaly some "Salmon Pink" coloured fluid used. Is this stuff anti-ice rather than de-icer?

[FEHERTO]

Hi, where you got this fluid.

Salmon pink is not a standard colour in accordance with the specifications for aircraft de-icing/anti-icing fluids:
Type I: red or red-orange
Type II: not coloured, but sometimes pale (exemption one fluid, which is yellow, as produced before specification came into force)
Type III: yellow
Type IV: green

[TOWTEAMBASE]

hedgehopper

yes i am, and you woud be wrong, i pass with flying colours every year. you see, its important for me to know whats written IN the AEA, not whats written ON the cover. ours is a controlled copy, so up to date all of the time. we all make mistakes hey ;-0

[GRIZZLER]

spannersatcx

I am sorry mr spannersatcx....but i dont dont think you could get round a 747 in 15 min in falling snow, the hold over time would have expired before you had finished....unless your rig is a converted ferrari with jenson button at the wheel.....we use ecowings26 type 2....but i dont think the hold over time for kilfrost is 1 hour 25 mins in snow...we can only give 25 mins in freezing fog....as we did last night....i think you should look again at your de ice paperwork....again

and the recomended minimum for de.icing 330 air bus wings and tail 580ltrs...according to the AEA handbook...and thats still more than was sprayed on the total aircraft .....so i still say it was not done correctly.

if you take time to look in the AEA de ice handbook it gives it gives the recomended minimum fluid on most aircraft known to man.

as for the killfrost times you gave on the abc-k plus at -3 degrees 75/25 mix its only 35 mins holdover..minimum.....even at 100 percent its still only 1 hour hold over minimum........not sure how you get 1.hour 25 mins out of that......at least thats what the FAA say.