Ops/Crewing people, what do you think of Flight Deck?
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Ops/Crewing people, what do you think of Flight Deck?
Ops / Crewing Guys and Gals,
What do you think of us - i.e. the flight deck?
Please give us your honest opinion.
Also, do you think the current rostering practice carried out in certain companies (i.e. up to the maximum allowed under CAP371, in terms of 100h/28d, nasties etc. with minimum days off) is safe or not?
By the way, I fully sympathise with your long working hours. I think if all the shifts were limited to 8 hours (oh yes including for pilots and cabin crew!), the life would be much more pleasant for everyone.
You will be protected by EU 48 hours working week law, won't you, though? Unfortunately we won't be.
Thanks everyone!
Cookie.
What do you think of us - i.e. the flight deck?
Please give us your honest opinion.
Also, do you think the current rostering practice carried out in certain companies (i.e. up to the maximum allowed under CAP371, in terms of 100h/28d, nasties etc. with minimum days off) is safe or not?
By the way, I fully sympathise with your long working hours. I think if all the shifts were limited to 8 hours (oh yes including for pilots and cabin crew!), the life would be much more pleasant for everyone.
You will be protected by EU 48 hours working week law, won't you, though? Unfortunately we won't be.
Thanks everyone!
Cookie.
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After almost 10 years in the business I have to say have found most pilots to be easy to get along with and highly professional. But there are always exceptions to this.
Have a few pilots with our mob now that almost drive me insane every time they call on the phone or vhf. Always the same individuals who seem to have little appreciation for what we do.
Having said that wouldn't stop working in aviation for anything - completely addicted.
Regarding the hours crew work - I agree CAP371 limits should be the top limit for hours worked, not the standard. However, as long as airlines compete in a financial market place can't see it changing.
With regards to 48 hour working week most airlines have staff work 4 on/4 off shifts which is only 48 hours a week anyway. Those carriers who allow their staff to work the 28-day pattern may have to change to 4 on/4 off - which will in my opinion be worse for the staff - not better.
Have a few pilots with our mob now that almost drive me insane every time they call on the phone or vhf. Always the same individuals who seem to have little appreciation for what we do.
Having said that wouldn't stop working in aviation for anything - completely addicted.
Regarding the hours crew work - I agree CAP371 limits should be the top limit for hours worked, not the standard. However, as long as airlines compete in a financial market place can't see it changing.
With regards to 48 hour working week most airlines have staff work 4 on/4 off shifts which is only 48 hours a week anyway. Those carriers who allow their staff to work the 28-day pattern may have to change to 4 on/4 off - which will in my opinion be worse for the staff - not better.
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Opsbod,
Thanks for your response!
I did not realise that you worked 4on/4off pattern. That makes you better off in terms of days-off than us! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your job's easier, though.
Would you mind explaining to me the 28-day pattern? I don't know what it is.
I just want to understand the working of Ops and Crewing, so that I can establish a better communication and relationship between the 'guys in the office' and the flight/cabin crew.
Thank you!
Thanks for your response!
I did not realise that you worked 4on/4off pattern. That makes you better off in terms of days-off than us! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your job's easier, though.
Would you mind explaining to me the 28-day pattern? I don't know what it is.
I just want to understand the working of Ops and Crewing, so that I can establish a better communication and relationship between the 'guys in the office' and the flight/cabin crew.
Thank you!
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Cookie
4-on / 4-off usually works out as 2 day shifts followed by 2 night shifts. You then get 1 rest day and 3 days off. This means you get 2 weekends off in 8 weeks. Worked it for 2 years and hated every minute of it. Very repetitive, and when you throw in overtime tiring.
28 day pattern works like this:
Week 1 Start Monday work 2 days/2 nights.
Week 2 Start Wednesday work 2 days 3 nights.
Week 3 Start Friday work 3 days 2 nights.
Equal time at work/off. 14 shifts in 28 days.
Feels non-repetitve and is less tiring.
Having said that after 9.5 years on shift just about to start working 9-5 and I think I'm going to miss shifts.
4-on / 4-off usually works out as 2 day shifts followed by 2 night shifts. You then get 1 rest day and 3 days off. This means you get 2 weekends off in 8 weeks. Worked it for 2 years and hated every minute of it. Very repetitive, and when you throw in overtime tiring.
28 day pattern works like this:
Week 1 Start Monday work 2 days/2 nights.
Week 2 Start Wednesday work 2 days 3 nights.
Week 3 Start Friday work 3 days 2 nights.
Equal time at work/off. 14 shifts in 28 days.
Feels non-repetitve and is less tiring.
Having said that after 9.5 years on shift just about to start working 9-5 and I think I'm going to miss shifts.
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Thanks for the info, Opsbod.
It does seem fairly hard for you. But I must say I would love to have 3 days off rostered together like you! I only tend to get 7 days off in 28 days which is the minimum legal requirement, and I have not had 3 days-off together since last year. I know if you count our standbys, the 'days off' will be more, but of course they're not the same. Also, one of the standbys per month usually turn into flights anyway.
Anything else you think the flight crew should know about the workings of ops/crewing?
It does seem fairly hard for you. But I must say I would love to have 3 days off rostered together like you! I only tend to get 7 days off in 28 days which is the minimum legal requirement, and I have not had 3 days-off together since last year. I know if you count our standbys, the 'days off' will be more, but of course they're not the same. Also, one of the standbys per month usually turn into flights anyway.
Anything else you think the flight crew should know about the workings of ops/crewing?
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I know every company has the kind of people who will moan about anything but when I see certain names on a crew list I know there is going to be some sort of problem. Anything from not being happy with a a route given to them to it being my fault if the aircraft develops a tech problem.
Question: Do pilots know about SRS?? It seems to me that our lot have no idea what SRS is and think we get late ATC slots on purpose!
Question: Do pilots know about SRS?? It seems to me that our lot have no idea what SRS is and think we get late ATC slots on purpose!
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SRS - if only the crews did all know about it!
Working in Ops though, as Senior Ops Controller - how's this for a shift system...
Start Monday 1200 - in the office until 2000. Then on call overnight until 0800 - phone rings all the time (we're an exec charter company). That carries on until Friday, when we have the phone for the entire weekend (140 hour week by my calculations!) then Monday off, back in on Tues - Fri 0800-1800, then weekend off.
Right, which pilot wants to go first...?!
Working in Ops though, as Senior Ops Controller - how's this for a shift system...
Start Monday 1200 - in the office until 2000. Then on call overnight until 0800 - phone rings all the time (we're an exec charter company). That carries on until Friday, when we have the phone for the entire weekend (140 hour week by my calculations!) then Monday off, back in on Tues - Fri 0800-1800, then weekend off.
Right, which pilot wants to go first...?!
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OK, tell us all about "SRS" then. Of course, in an Airbus it has a different meaning!
But...our Ops guys are usually pretty good. A slightly late slot is 100 times better than one which allows for a 40 mins turnround, with 220 pax both ways and a long taxi.
I have to admit that we usually tell our handling agents that we will be on stand about 10 mins before we really will be and tell Ops that we will be on stand 5-10 mins after we will be. Then it all usually works really well!!
And how does the extra 10 mins work? (Not the ATC discretion 10')
But...our Ops guys are usually pretty good. A slightly late slot is 100 times better than one which allows for a 40 mins turnround, with 220 pax both ways and a long taxi.
I have to admit that we usually tell our handling agents that we will be on stand about 10 mins before we really will be and tell Ops that we will be on stand 5-10 mins after we will be. Then it all usually works really well!!
And how does the extra 10 mins work? (Not the ATC discretion 10')
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SRS - Standard Routing Scheme. Eurocontrol decide which routes will be taken through individual countries airspace when flying between two city pairs. Heathrow to Paris has a specific route (at low level) through Seaford and Dieppe, which if not filed will either result in a flight plan rejection or a serious delay on the route when it actually comes to two hours before IOBT. They introduce the SRS routings regularly and update current ones fairly often - usually just as Ops have worked out the correct routing!!
There are lists of routings, and I mean lists... which need a person full time to ork them out and apply them. So there you go a brief introduction to SRS!
There are lists of routings, and I mean lists... which need a person full time to ork them out and apply them. So there you go a brief introduction to SRS!
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As mentioned beforehand, I think 95% of flightdeck crews are excellent. Yes you get whingers and moaners, but you get them anywhere I s'pose.
Re SRS - nightmare !!
On the one of the other topics, the subject of flightdeck crews visting ops / crewing for a day was raised. It can be the only way for true famil as to what we go through, the same as we get from jump seat rides.
Generally though - my biggest gripe about flightdeck is a simple one ... switch on your mobile phone when in distant lands so that we can contact you about reroutes etc etc !!! :-)
Re SRS - nightmare !!
On the one of the other topics, the subject of flightdeck crews visting ops / crewing for a day was raised. It can be the only way for true famil as to what we go through, the same as we get from jump seat rides.
Generally though - my biggest gripe about flightdeck is a simple one ... switch on your mobile phone when in distant lands so that we can contact you about reroutes etc etc !!! :-)
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Cookie Monster (et all!!)
Fully agree with the sentiments passed
by the rest of my ground-borne mates.....
The only thing to add, is that the f/d's
who come under the catagory of A*******S
have either got no idea, or major contempt
for the job done by us "penguins".....
Perhaps if they looked at the world outside of their cosy little "office" they'ed appreciate that the world doesn't revolve
around them (or does it???)
Ref them spending time in the Ops dept...
They couldn't hack the pace/hassle.......
QB
Fully agree with the sentiments passed
by the rest of my ground-borne mates.....
The only thing to add, is that the f/d's
who come under the catagory of A*******S
have either got no idea, or major contempt
for the job done by us "penguins".....
Perhaps if they looked at the world outside of their cosy little "office" they'ed appreciate that the world doesn't revolve
around them (or does it???)
Ref them spending time in the Ops dept...
They couldn't hack the pace/hassle.......
QB
