Advise needed - days off required

[fastone]

Hi there,

I have a bit of an unsure situation.

I have a cabin crew member on the following roster:

6th aug - Standby 0700 to 1500
7th aug - off
8th aug - 0515 to 1515 (two sector flight)
9th aug - 1330 to 2130 (two sector flight)
10th aug - 1445 to 2145 (two sector flight)
11th aug - 1330 to 0020 (two sector flight, we had a delay)
12th aug - rostered as OFF
13th aug - off
14th aug -0500 to 1420 (two sector flight)
15th aug - 0500 to 1515 (two sector flight)
16th aug - 1330 to 2130(two sector flight)
17th aug - 1445 to 2145 (two sector flight)
18th aug - 1330 to 2130 (two sector flight)
19th aug OFF
20th aug OFF
21st aug 0700 to 1500 standby

My question is ::

If the 12th aug was rostered as OFF and the fligth on 11th was late and came in at 20 mins past midnight on the 12th, is the 12th auctally a day off??

and do you think that this crew member should have a day off given back somewhere through the month?

I will appreciate any feedback on this.

Thanks

[Crewing Gimp]

Usually a Day off should consist of 2 local nights (8 hours between 2200 an 0800 local time) and cover at least 34 hour.

I Presume this is a Uk based crews roster so 12 Aug would be invalid.

Different airlines have different agreements for re payment of days off. Could be paid for or replaced or if you are lucky both.

Legally it looks like they are missing 2 days off in 14 due 12th being invalid also. If it was me I would of replaced 14th to keep pair. As long as 16th is a zulu report time.

Hope this helps

The Gimp

[YaYaYa]

my 2cents worth..

Way I always understood it was if crew landed into a rostered day off then it is owed back,even if the legality of the roster is unchanged by them landing past midnight.

[bacardi walla]

For a start, 7th is not a day off either

[Phileas Fogg]

Under UK regulations one cannot report for duty before 0600 local (after a local night off), are the times quoted GMT or local as if they are local then the 7th & 13th are NOT days off.

If a crew member loses a day off then the roster must maintain legality, i.e. 2 consecutive days off within 14 days, if the crew member does not receive these days off, for whatever reason, then it is illegal.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

PHILEAS
Once a Crewer always a Crewer!
FASTONE
On the presumption the times are in GMT and report times you still have a problem because of the lost day off on the 12th. Gimps answer was spot on, if this did not happen because its today then changing 18/8 to a day off should keep it legal for 2 in 14

[Phileas Fogg]

Hello Mr Purley,
Many, many, years have passed since we worked together, after GK I moved across to Operations but always worked in the sort of company whereas as an Ops person I found myself involved in Crewing, many years later I found myself setting up and managing a Crewing Dept. from scratch, having previously worked with UK, FAA, Australian & Dutch regulations I then had to write our own company regulations, that was quite a challenge to try and pre-empt every eventually but once written it's not the kind of thing that one can easily forget!

One has to presume that fastone's times are GMT as one can't believe that a Crewing Dept. could be otherwise so stupid, perhaps that Dept. have already reacted to his/her roster disruption unbeknown to him/her but there should be some responsibility upon the individual crew member to understand the regulations and bring it to the attention of the Crewing Dept. although it always helps if the Crewing Dept. is one step ahead of the crew member by maintaining legality without being prompted
PF

[Low life]

If the times are Z The 7th and the 14th are days off and you will get away with it

If these times are local then you are in heavy Karma

FOR Z
I am assuming 2 clear days with 3 local nights 4th and 5th

12th is a working day which
The 13th must be a day off to gain 1 day in 8

The 18th and 19th must also be days off to gain 2 days off in 14

The flight on the 17th cannot be delayed past midnight

FOR LOCAL
By reporting before 0600 on the 8th and 14th the crew has negated the day off on the 7th and 13th so has already worked 10 days without a day off and is planned to work 13 with only one day off.

Could not be bothered to check if Acc hours are ok.

As for days off companies follow differing systems, I always preferred if it was within a few hours of midnight you could take the payment but risk being put on a Standby when you come back into hours, after all you have accepted the day as a working day.
For major encroaches then you are given the payment and stood down.

[fastone]

Thank you for your replies guys.

The times are local not Z.
This isnt a UK roster. I can not say over here which country I am in, but will tell you that the mother company is non JAR OPS and the country we operate from is JAR OPS.
The crew are employed in JAR OPS country but fly under a non JAR AOC.

What do you make of it?

if the 0500L check in is not a day off, then all of our days off are just a joke!

[Phileas Fogg]

Fastone,
The company FTL scheme 'should' be in the operations manual. The 0600L start after a day off is very much a British thing, when I worked out on the continent a day off was midnight to midnight and whilst there was a required minimum number of days off every 28 days or month there was no such requirement for minimum days off within a 7, 10 or 14 day period, there was merely a requirement for breaks of 36, 48 or 60 hours.

Read your company operations manual, it should all be in there.

PF

[fastone]

Yes it is in the manual.

It is all just a bit funny.

It says here that a day off must include two periods between 0200 and 0600 Local, so it is pretty obvious that someone here is doing something wrong.

I am a bit puzzled.

thanks

[Phileas Fogg]

Fastone,
That indicates that one can not commence duty until 0600 after a day off if indeed the day off is legally required.

What does the FTL say about required number of days off and how often these days off should occur?

[garthicus]

Fastone...

I find it a bit concerning that you have to come on here to ask advise 1) it should be in your manual 2) there should be somebody internally to ask and 3) It's unprofessional..

[Phileas Fogg]

Garthicus,
Fastone obviously knew that there was something amiss but came here for second opinion(s).

There obviously is something amiss but because fastone has declined to reveal the operators identity or indeed his location it would indicate, to anyone with even the slightest notion of life in the real world, that there isn't an internal authority whom he feels he can approach for fear of jeopardising his position.

What has he done that is unprofessional? He hasn't brought any operator into disrepute, he's just asking for second opinion(s) of what is written in the Operations Manual before he may decide to pursue the matter further. It is a Commanders responsibility to ensure that his aircraft is operated legally, how he chooses to source that required information is not dictated thus his actions fall within the parameters of a Commander and his responsibilities.

And good on him for coming to Flight Ops, Crewing and Dispatch, many a pilot will feel he is above talking to us lot, particularly to ask us for advice

[fastone]

Phileas is exatly on the spot with my situation.

I did feel that it wasn't right and I just needed another unbiased opinion before I do anything about it internally.

I did not do anything unprofessional. If in doubt shout! Remember??

I trust its better then doing something wrong.

Guys, I do appreciate your help. The ops forum is very informative. Thanks

[garthicus]

What if the advice given here is wrong or fastone's interpretation of the advice goes against his/hers companies SOPs... ‘‘Well I asked the opinion on a public forum and that's the answer I got'' Won't exactly satisfy the powers that be.

ALSO.. The time frame involved in asking questions and receiving answers on this forum can be lengthy and therefore you could in theory have a crew member flying out of hours or illegally and therefore in an emergency situation Fastone could indeed be acting unprofessionally.

Surely there is somebody wherever Fastone works that they can bounce the question off... even in confidence. After 3 years of crewing myself, I'm VERY surprised that nobody besides myself feels that it is a very odd question to be asking for such a pressing situation.

[garthicus]

Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg

And good on him for coming to Flight Ops, Crewing and Dispatch, many a pilot will feel he is above talking to us lot, particularly to ask us for advice

What makes you think he/she is a Pilot?

[Phileas Fogg]

Originally Posted by garthicus

What makes you think he/she is a Pilot?

Well it ain't exactly 'rocket science' to figure out

What the hell have FTL's got to do with SOP's, SOP's are how one operates the aircraft and conducts their duties, FTL's are whether you are legal to report for duty before you even get close to operating the aircraft or conducting your duties.

It is for fastone, as a mature individual, to decide if the advice given here is correct or not but, just by coincidence, the advice given here coincides with his operators Operations Manual, now isn't that a coincidence?

It seems we're all singing from the same hymn sheet except one, but as they say, there's always one

[garthicus]

My use of SOP instead of FTL is not totally incorrect(in context) you are correct in the use of FTLs but I was referring to the companies SOPs in chain of command and gathering information ot make this informed decision on the Cabin Crew members duty hours, agreed I should have been more specific, however The Acronym SOP is NOT only relevant to the Aircraft and how one operates their duties etc, it is used in a variety of instances not only within the Aircraft, but in Operations and indeed outside the aviation community

The manual with FTLs that I used until recently was entitled "Operations SOPs" inside was the FTLs

And no, I don't think it's "Rocket Science" to figure out that they are a pilot.