20 min turn-around unrealistic!
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20 min turn-around unrealistic!
I've been working on the Easyjet product for just over 1 year. During this period I've seen the number of Passenger Service Agents, allocated to "departures" steadily decrease, to the point where only 1 agent is allocated to board a flight.
The workload for the departures team has steadily increased, with the introduction of Online Check-in etc etc, to the point where I find myself coming under fire because I refuse to cut corners. Other agents seem perfectly happy about just checking that the passenger is going to the right destination, but I am not. It seems that brushing off the passport check is the norm when time is tight. On the rare occasion when I am joined by another agent at the gate, I seem to spend half my time chasing their passengers down the stairs, because they have been allowed to board with their spouses passport!!!!!
I do not think that it's acceptable for anyone to be faced with 156 passengers, at the entrance to a restricted area, and be expected to carry out the appropriate checks, single handed, in less than 15minutes. (Assuming that it only took the inbound passengers 5min to disembark). The pressure placed on the staff for an on-time departure is totally counter productive, there is no encouragement to do things properly, instead agents flap and make mistakes.
What are the opinions from those at other stations. Do all EZY hubs only have one gate agent per flight???
The workload for the departures team has steadily increased, with the introduction of Online Check-in etc etc, to the point where I find myself coming under fire because I refuse to cut corners. Other agents seem perfectly happy about just checking that the passenger is going to the right destination, but I am not. It seems that brushing off the passport check is the norm when time is tight. On the rare occasion when I am joined by another agent at the gate, I seem to spend half my time chasing their passengers down the stairs, because they have been allowed to board with their spouses passport!!!!!
I do not think that it's acceptable for anyone to be faced with 156 passengers, at the entrance to a restricted area, and be expected to carry out the appropriate checks, single handed, in less than 15minutes. (Assuming that it only took the inbound passengers 5min to disembark). The pressure placed on the staff for an on-time departure is totally counter productive, there is no encouragement to do things properly, instead agents flap and make mistakes.
What are the opinions from those at other stations. Do all EZY hubs only have one gate agent per flight???
Last edited by TotalBeginner; 16th Apr 2006 at 22:40.
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Totally agree! That's why I don't help with boarding procedures at the gate - otherwise it might hide the fact that Passenger Services are short-staffed; if a flight goes late because of short-staffing, then maybe management will belatedly pay attention; otherwise they will just assume we (as a team) can cope!
What about the summer season, when the dispatchers get sometimes asked to do two short-haul/low-cost turnarounds SIMULTANEOUSLY... something that's obviously unprofessional and unsafe, and that I now simply refuse to do (for the same reasons as mentioned above).
Cheers
What about the summer season, when the dispatchers get sometimes asked to do two short-haul/low-cost turnarounds SIMULTANEOUSLY... something that's obviously unprofessional and unsafe, and that I now simply refuse to do (for the same reasons as mentioned above).
Cheers
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Back in the days when I was a Customer service agent ( Ok, that was 18 years ago) we used to throw so many staff at the boarding gate. Two to pull boarding cards and two to board. One for under the wing and one for the steps.
It does seem crazy to allocate a max of two staff per gate, and dangerous, to boot.
Ok, everyones trying to cut corners, these days, to make dosh, but at what cost?
Although, when I was a load controller, it was the norm to dispatch 3 flights at a time, 1st thing. although they were usually all parked next to each other.
Used to be a great way to lose weight
Glad I'm behind a desk, these days. Good luck !
It does seem crazy to allocate a max of two staff per gate, and dangerous, to boot.
Ok, everyones trying to cut corners, these days, to make dosh, but at what cost?
Although, when I was a load controller, it was the norm to dispatch 3 flights at a time, 1st thing. although they were usually all parked next to each other.
Used to be a great way to lose weight
Glad I'm behind a desk, these days. Good luck !
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It can be done with one pax agent, but only if the right facilities are available and the agent is clued up and on the ball. My previous experience of EZY at STN is that neither of these things are happening.
I have seen/done plenty of non-fiddled, genuine 20 min turnarounds and I know it can be done, although the classic 20 min turnaround chart from easyjet is a load of old cobblers - network analysis at its worst.
I have seen/done plenty of non-fiddled, genuine 20 min turnarounds and I know it can be done, although the classic 20 min turnaround chart from easyjet is a load of old cobblers - network analysis at its worst.
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Hi!
Great thread!
I work as a loadcontroller / dispatcher. It's sad to see that our job is sinking... The handling of low cost carriers kills our loadcontrol experience... The freeseating and similar things ruin all that I learnt during the years... Zero Fuel Weight on an Easy A319? Pass the final figures to the captian, and probably you are lucky enough not to offload bags...
Sad, very sad...
Cheers!
Great thread!
I work as a loadcontroller / dispatcher. It's sad to see that our job is sinking... The handling of low cost carriers kills our loadcontrol experience... The freeseating and similar things ruin all that I learnt during the years... Zero Fuel Weight on an Easy A319? Pass the final figures to the captian, and probably you are lucky enough not to offload bags...
Sad, very sad...
Cheers!
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Twas one of the reasons why after 4 years working as check in staff and dispatch I decided that enough was enough. Thing is, the less the airline pays the less the handling agent can provide. I can remember a certain Welsh airline paying for one passenger services agent but wanted three when it came to boarding. Handling agent provided what that airline paid for and they picked up quite a few delays because of it.
This leads me onto delay codes. Unfortunately there is not a delay code for " Airline refuses to pay for a proper service " so most delays go down to handling delays. This is where management start to get their knickers in a twist. I got fed up of having to explain that a lack of staff caused the delay. But because that was a handling delay I had to find some other reason. Mind you it would have helped if the guys sending the departure message helped out a bit. When I started dispatching there was an unwritten rule that said " 10 minute delays do not exist ". That all changed when I moved to a single handling agent airport.
The handling agent at this airport covered everything. Though Bacon airlines covered their own flights and one or two others. Now we were all working under the same company name as a team. That was until we picked up a delay of two minutes. They guys sending the departure messages wanted a delay code for a delay of two minutes but their watches/clocks were never wrong were they? So I'd just pick a number to keep them quiet. But I'd get told that we can't use that delay code because it either "does not exist (?)" or was a handling delay so we couldn't use it. Even though that was the cause of the delay I still couldn't use it. So I'd tell them to pick a number (a bit like delay code bingo really) only for it to cause a big argument between the ramp, passenger services and the airport authority. All arguing that the cause of the delay was down to the next person.
There is a quote in a certain American carrier’s operation manual that said:-
" Delay codes are not used to allocate blame. They are used by management to identify potential problem areas ".
So why do we get the blame and a bolloking for a delay? Instead of finding a solution to the problem management prefer to take the power trip option and bollok anyone who may be in the wrong place at the wrong time which does nothing for staff moral. This was a big factor in me making the decision to leave the airline business. No one needs the stress or the pressure put upon you.
I'm now working for my local ambulance service driving a doctor around where there is just the two of us in the car and no pressure from management. I get nearly double the pay I used to get, a full time permanent contract, decent working hours, a decent amount of holidays (8 weeks per year) and more respect from management and members of the public. I think I made the right choice and would never return to working for a handling agent unless things changed 100%.
This leads me onto delay codes. Unfortunately there is not a delay code for " Airline refuses to pay for a proper service " so most delays go down to handling delays. This is where management start to get their knickers in a twist. I got fed up of having to explain that a lack of staff caused the delay. But because that was a handling delay I had to find some other reason. Mind you it would have helped if the guys sending the departure message helped out a bit. When I started dispatching there was an unwritten rule that said " 10 minute delays do not exist ". That all changed when I moved to a single handling agent airport.
The handling agent at this airport covered everything. Though Bacon airlines covered their own flights and one or two others. Now we were all working under the same company name as a team. That was until we picked up a delay of two minutes. They guys sending the departure messages wanted a delay code for a delay of two minutes but their watches/clocks were never wrong were they? So I'd just pick a number to keep them quiet. But I'd get told that we can't use that delay code because it either "does not exist (?)" or was a handling delay so we couldn't use it. Even though that was the cause of the delay I still couldn't use it. So I'd tell them to pick a number (a bit like delay code bingo really) only for it to cause a big argument between the ramp, passenger services and the airport authority. All arguing that the cause of the delay was down to the next person.
There is a quote in a certain American carrier’s operation manual that said:-
" Delay codes are not used to allocate blame. They are used by management to identify potential problem areas ".
So why do we get the blame and a bolloking for a delay? Instead of finding a solution to the problem management prefer to take the power trip option and bollok anyone who may be in the wrong place at the wrong time which does nothing for staff moral. This was a big factor in me making the decision to leave the airline business. No one needs the stress or the pressure put upon you.
I'm now working for my local ambulance service driving a doctor around where there is just the two of us in the car and no pressure from management. I get nearly double the pay I used to get, a full time permanent contract, decent working hours, a decent amount of holidays (8 weeks per year) and more respect from management and members of the public. I think I made the right choice and would never return to working for a handling agent unless things changed 100%.
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I think it's a big question of how well-trained & well-motivated your passenger service agents are, whilst you can ultimately get the job very well done if you're managers are like the Gestapo, it's much nicer if you feel valued or work in a nice environment, which my experience with the circus shows we are in the Gestapo bracket, rather than the friendly one. Because PSAs are relatively cheap to train, and there is a string of naive young people who see it as the stepping stone to cabin-crew, we're seen as something of a replacable commodity.
20-minute turnarounds are achievable if you're well trained, even if there's only one person on the gate, I've done this for both 156-seat easyJet A319s & 189-seat Ryanair 738s. The issue though, is that whilst you are efficient, you don't have time to be friendly, and sometimes you are unable to ensure that the boarding procedures such as priority boarding groups can be offered. At my base, on slot one flights (0600-0700) there is usually only one PSA on the boarding for low-cost flights, whilst throughout the rest of the day it depends how many staff are around if it's going to be one or two. Short-staffedness is something that won't go away as the airlines try to squeeze more costs from the industry, and whilst I don't think it compromises safety, it compromises service & the well-being of your workforce.
20-minute turnarounds are achievable if you're well trained, even if there's only one person on the gate, I've done this for both 156-seat easyJet A319s & 189-seat Ryanair 738s. The issue though, is that whilst you are efficient, you don't have time to be friendly, and sometimes you are unable to ensure that the boarding procedures such as priority boarding groups can be offered. At my base, on slot one flights (0600-0700) there is usually only one PSA on the boarding for low-cost flights, whilst throughout the rest of the day it depends how many staff are around if it's going to be one or two. Short-staffedness is something that won't go away as the airlines try to squeeze more costs from the industry, and whilst I don't think it compromises safety, it compromises service & the well-being of your workforce.
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The larger airports will have dedicated checkin, gate and arrivals staff but Cardiff isn't that busy so there is no need. The system works with a nice long turnaround but can cause problems with shorter turnaround times. Having equipment that works is also a bonus. Now when I was at Cardiff I found that the equipment could often let you down be it the airports or the circus'.
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whilst I don't think it compromises safety, it compromises service & the well-being of your workforce.
20-minute turnarounds are achievable if you're well trained, even if there's only one person on the gate, I've done this for both 156-seat easyJet A319s & 189-seat Ryanair 738s. The issue though, is that whilst you are efficient, you don't have time to be friendly, and sometimes you are unable to ensure that the boarding procedures such as priority boarding groups can be offered
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Sorry TotalBeginner but I think you're actually underestimating the professionalism of some of the people that work as PSAs handling no-frills airlines, and no doubt you will but a stress on the word some. I make it clear as part of all of my announcements when boarding flights, which I believe is necessary to please have your photo open to the photo id page it doesn't take long to look at the photo, the passenger, then rip the card, it's acheivable with 25-minute turnarounds (I've never witnessed 20-minute turns), although I will admit that I usually feel like a sitdown, and a little sweaty after I've done one. Even with the relative discomfort, my main concern is not safety, it's that I've been barking orders at pax, and some passengers who may have been rightfully deserving of a priority boarding placement were not given one, as I was rushed.
We're quite fortunate at my base where we have three gates where passengers have got to go down just three steps before going into a holding pen, standing at the top of the stairs rather than at the podium is usually the best way to ensure that you can check everyone's passport & boarding card. We have another two where the gap is so small to enter the gate area that people come in single file, again a benefit to us. However, whilst these physical restraints benefit us, it can be done from others. It's all down to the training & commitment of staff, and no I'm not a manager or supervisor!
We're quite fortunate at my base where we have three gates where passengers have got to go down just three steps before going into a holding pen, standing at the top of the stairs rather than at the podium is usually the best way to ensure that you can check everyone's passport & boarding card. We have another two where the gap is so small to enter the gate area that people come in single file, again a benefit to us. However, whilst these physical restraints benefit us, it can be done from others. It's all down to the training & commitment of staff, and no I'm not a manager or supervisor!
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Originally Posted by Lite
my main concern is not safety
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FC: I don't understand your comment "I used to pick a number to keep them quiet." Isn't it important to assign the correct delay code? Clearly you weren't doing this!
However, how about adding some new delay codes to the IATA list to ease this apparent issue: how about not enough dispatchers, not enough gate staff, no ground staff available because the a/c was off schedule etc etc.
Off the original topic I know, but any other ideas for new delay codes?
However, how about adding some new delay codes to the IATA list to ease this apparent issue: how about not enough dispatchers, not enough gate staff, no ground staff available because the a/c was off schedule etc etc.
Off the original topic I know, but any other ideas for new delay codes?
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Originally Posted by redfield
FC: I don't understand your comment "I used to pick a number to keep them quiet." Isn't it important to assign the correct delay code? Clearly you weren't doing this!
13. Check-in error.
15. Boarding, discrepancy and paging _Flight coupon/boarding passs counting errors or wrong announcement
32. Loading/unloading - Late or wrong load planning/lack of loading staff
36. Fueling/de-fueling. Late arrival of the fuel supplier/technical problems at fuel supplier. (because there was an "agrrement" with the fuel supplier)
90% of the time I was told I couldn't use those codes. So if you can't issue a code, what do you do?
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I wasn't aware that Ryanair had 20-minute 738 turnarounds. As far as I am concerned, they are all 25-minute turnarounds - I do enough of them to be sure about that, and at 25 minutes, they are intensive enough!
As for not being able to use the correct delay code (it has happened to me, but not to that extent), if I really disagree with a given delay code, I will (as I have done several times) write a separate, full report about the turnaround to my OPS manager (and I will make sure he reads it, too!); if anything, I will have made my point about fiddling delay codes (after all, what are they for if they are not to be used?) and he'll realise that fiddling delay codes means wasting 10 minutes of HIS valuable time!
Cheers
As for not being able to use the correct delay code (it has happened to me, but not to that extent), if I really disagree with a given delay code, I will (as I have done several times) write a separate, full report about the turnaround to my OPS manager (and I will make sure he reads it, too!); if anything, I will have made my point about fiddling delay codes (after all, what are they for if they are not to be used?) and he'll realise that fiddling delay codes means wasting 10 minutes of HIS valuable time!
Cheers
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Originally Posted by Fernando_Covas
Isn't that the whole point of the post? That safety is taking a back seat. The original poster wrote that he dosn't like to cut corners and you have just shown that you do just that by compramising the safety of passengers. If you were well trained in your job then safety would be the priority a long way before priority boarding!!
Aloon, my post is not their to be spellchecked, I'm not in an English primary school lesson, it's an internet discussion board for aviation professionals, I don't require writing with a dictionary when I post here. The conflict of 20/25 minute turnaround was that I think this post should say "25 min turn" as these are the turnaround times that are used by Ryanair & most of the time easyJet. I've never at my base seen either airline schedule 20 minute turns.
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Don't worry about it, I'm not angry at all, but felt that I needed to justify my post. I've been handling low-cost airline flights with 25-minute turnarounds now for three going on four years, and believe that with the right amount of training, enthusiasm & encouragement, then this can be realistically targeted. I wanted to comment on this post, because I handle mostly low-cost airline flights, although both easyJet & Ryanair operate 25-minute turns at my airport, which is the norm systemwide, rather than the 20-minute quoted at the top of the page.
But, there is a lot to be said for debate, and I enjoy hearing plenty of opinions.
But, there is a lot to be said for debate, and I enjoy hearing plenty of opinions.
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I work for a handling agent that handles Jet2. The shortest turnaround time we have would be 30 mins. Having that extra 5-10 mins is important especially when both the inbound and outbound flights are full.
Richard
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I agree; having even an extra 5 minutes would be priceless - especially on a full Ryanair 737-800 with 189 seats. Even a baby 737-300/149Y can be challenging in 25 minutes if there are WCHC among the PAX.
Cheers
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As low-cost airlines shun the use of airbridges, the trend seems to be that it's actually faster to get pax across the ramp and up two flights of steps where they can spread themselves about where they like. The problem is that most people only see one flight of steps, or do not want to walk to another set especially if it's cold & wet, and furthermore what I've noticed with bmibaby, where we have assigned seating, at EMA is that our CSAs no longer direct pax to a particular flight of steps. Go, who used the same model as we do, used to direct pax sitting aft of the emergency exit rows to board through the rear doors, and those forward to go through the front door. I agree with FougaMagister when he says that pax with special needs don't seem to be accounted for with these fast turnarounds, whether they're slow walks or actually need an ambulift. Not having airbridges presumably requires more staff anyway, as pax have to be directed across the ramp & assisted with steps, so does time over number of staff save money?
I'd say 30-minutes is plenty of time to turnaround a Boeing 737, after all even post 9/11 Southwest (before they had 15-mins turns in some stations including LAX) in the USA manages to do it in 20mins. 30-minutes not only gives the gate staff enough time to do their jobs in a professional & secure manner, but also is much more comfortable for both them & pax especially those with limited mobility or other special requirements. 20/25-minutes just rushes everyone, and I wonder what added expenses would come with just adding 5-minutes.
I'd say 30-minutes is plenty of time to turnaround a Boeing 737, after all even post 9/11 Southwest (before they had 15-mins turns in some stations including LAX) in the USA manages to do it in 20mins. 30-minutes not only gives the gate staff enough time to do their jobs in a professional & secure manner, but also is much more comfortable for both them & pax especially those with limited mobility or other special requirements. 20/25-minutes just rushes everyone, and I wonder what added expenses would come with just adding 5-minutes.