ATC Fam flights..are they welcome?
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ATC Fam flights..are they welcome?
Just flown back across the pond today to YYZ and as I am now training on terminal control there asked if it would be possible to sit in the jump seat for the last hour of the flight to observe final approach etc and note the workload of the pilots, aswell as giving me a chance to ask questions of what would make for helpful ATC. All good stuff for training
I was met with a resounding no from the Cabin crew and told security measures prevented this. This has been the case the last 3 or 4 times I have travelled.
What is the concensus amongst airline pilots. Would you welcome ATC in the cockpit? Should we know what is going on on the flightdeck? Why does airline security prevent "security cleared" controllers from being up front?
If the answer is yes to some of the above then why are fam flights such a rarity now....and maybe for another forum..why do the cabin crew take it upon themselves to say no without asking the Captain?
I was met with a resounding no from the Cabin crew and told security measures prevented this. This has been the case the last 3 or 4 times I have travelled.
What is the concensus amongst airline pilots. Would you welcome ATC in the cockpit? Should we know what is going on on the flightdeck? Why does airline security prevent "security cleared" controllers from being up front?
If the answer is yes to some of the above then why are fam flights such a rarity now....and maybe for another forum..why do the cabin crew take it upon themselves to say no without asking the Captain?
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Personally I would be delighted to see an ATC bloke/gal on the flight deck. It has to be booked in advance through ops - ie you cannot just approach them in flight and say you are ATC. Nonetheless I know that we do it gladly at easyJet and if I was the skipper you would be welcome any time. I think just about any pilot would have a similar view. The secret is to book it in advance through 'official' channels - ie get your people to talk to our people!
Hope to see you at some stage.
Hope to see you at some stage.
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As Norman says, done in advance, it's usually not a problem with a lot of airlines. Done on the hoof, why should they accept you are who you say you are in todays security conscious environment ??
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Pleased to see you. Almost never see ATCO's thesedays.
There are channels, please find out what they are and use them.
You will be most welcome.
kind regards
BF
Pleased to see you. Almost never see ATCO's thesedays.
There are channels, please find out what they are and use them.
You will be most welcome.
kind regards
BF
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Likewise, would be more than happy to see ATCOs up front ...
It used to happen a lot more frequently, but we still get the occassional visitor. Never seem to have a slot with an ATCO on board.
The funny part is seeing their faces we they see a 737 jumpseat ... "only 2 more hours to go !"
It used to happen a lot more frequently, but we still get the occassional visitor. Never seem to have a slot with an ATCO on board.
The funny part is seeing their faces we they see a 737 jumpseat ... "only 2 more hours to go !"
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As an aircraft Commander (UK airline), I'm afraid I have NO discretion whatsoever as to allowing an ATC'er entry to the flight deck during flight, unless it is pre authorised through management in advance.
There are since 9/11 far more stringent checks and processes to pass through to get you on the Flt deck, none of which can be dealt with from an ad hoc request 'on the day'.
Even if you bring your pass/license I can't let you in unless you have sorted it all in advance, and my company have advised me of your authorisation. Sorry........ anything other than that will now fall under wilfull and gross neglect of security procedures by myself and lead to disciplinary action - possibly dismissal!
For what it's worth I have always believed there is great value to having ATC'ers come on fam flts, likewise pilots getting themselves inside ATC facilities and understanding ATC's problems and niggles.
I have carried many fam flts over the years, including 2 from my local unit in the last week. I made the applications on their behalf after requests from the unit, activated and chased the admin now required - all hassle, time consuming, but I do believe worthwhile.
In summary,yes Fam Flts are available, but please please sort well in advance to avoid dissapointment on the day - we no longer have discretion to open the door to you whatever your proven credentials!
30W
There are since 9/11 far more stringent checks and processes to pass through to get you on the Flt deck, none of which can be dealt with from an ad hoc request 'on the day'.
Even if you bring your pass/license I can't let you in unless you have sorted it all in advance, and my company have advised me of your authorisation. Sorry........ anything other than that will now fall under wilfull and gross neglect of security procedures by myself and lead to disciplinary action - possibly dismissal!
For what it's worth I have always believed there is great value to having ATC'ers come on fam flts, likewise pilots getting themselves inside ATC facilities and understanding ATC's problems and niggles.
I have carried many fam flts over the years, including 2 from my local unit in the last week. I made the applications on their behalf after requests from the unit, activated and chased the admin now required - all hassle, time consuming, but I do believe worthwhile.
In summary,yes Fam Flts are available, but please please sort well in advance to avoid dissapointment on the day - we no longer have discretion to open the door to you whatever your proven credentials!
30W
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Fam. Flights
Sorry to hear these are less frequent. I remember one to Chicago pre 9/11 which couldn't have been better as an illustration of how we don't just sit up there are push a few buttons. Given that ORD is one of the busiest airports, this arrival was an absolute stonker. We had 3 changes of runway, speed reductions, increases ( 'No delay, speedbird' - meaning do it NOW! ) confusing phraseology, vectors all over the place, no questions allowed, a continual stream of RT, land and hold short etc. I'm not sure if this wasn't the time one of the reversers didn't deploy!
Anyway we took the ATC guy out for a drink that night and he admitted that he didn't expect to see such workload when attempting to land an aeroplane. It made of those years of grumbling about 'us underappreciated crews' and 'where is the flight manager when I need him' seem worthwhile.
To my American buddies - I'm not criticising the way you do it, given the traffic, weather, legalities etc - it's just different over here.
Cheers, Y
Anyway we took the ATC guy out for a drink that night and he admitted that he didn't expect to see such workload when attempting to land an aeroplane. It made of those years of grumbling about 'us underappreciated crews' and 'where is the flight manager when I need him' seem worthwhile.
To my American buddies - I'm not criticising the way you do it, given the traffic, weather, legalities etc - it's just different over here.
Cheers, Y
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126,7.
As has been stated, in Uk reg aircraft you must get prior authorisation from the airline management first via your own management.
If we let you in knowing that clearly your licence etc was bonafide, it only takes one smart arse in the cabin to report the whole incident to the CAA. This is why when I have pre-authorised jumpseat rides, I make sure they enter the flightdeck before departure. And if they do venture into the cabin, they at least look official. Smart, pass etc.
You have to remember the emotions of the pax, seeing a random geezer just enter the flightdeck mid flight. Not a very pleasant thing for a nervous/suspicious pax.
So rules need to be followed as with the best will in the world, some whistle blower will wreck your career. As in my company it is class as gross misconduct and will attract dismissal!
But send off the emails and provided you have an airside pass it should be no problems to sort.
As has been stated, in Uk reg aircraft you must get prior authorisation from the airline management first via your own management.
If we let you in knowing that clearly your licence etc was bonafide, it only takes one smart arse in the cabin to report the whole incident to the CAA. This is why when I have pre-authorised jumpseat rides, I make sure they enter the flightdeck before departure. And if they do venture into the cabin, they at least look official. Smart, pass etc.
You have to remember the emotions of the pax, seeing a random geezer just enter the flightdeck mid flight. Not a very pleasant thing for a nervous/suspicious pax.
So rules need to be followed as with the best will in the world, some whistle blower will wreck your career. As in my company it is class as gross misconduct and will attract dismissal!
But send off the emails and provided you have an airside pass it should be no problems to sort.
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Thanks for the replies.
It was as I suspected although it never seemed so bad before 9/11 (obviously!) I feel for the crew who could get charged with gross misconduct even if the cockpit visitor had all the ID needed. Jumpy passengers I can appreciate...I have sat next to enough of them!
NATS used to run a BA course after you had completed training which involved two fam flights on European sectors. Not sure if they still do this. I also believe when travelling standby if you are a pilot or controller you can get offered the jump seat..I may be wrong on that. I sat behind the crew once on a Twin Otter flight from Glasgow to Barra and listened intently as the pilots did all their checks and the like...then asked me to describe the women on board the plane for them.....Ahh those days of low security!
It was as I suspected although it never seemed so bad before 9/11 (obviously!) I feel for the crew who could get charged with gross misconduct even if the cockpit visitor had all the ID needed. Jumpy passengers I can appreciate...I have sat next to enough of them!
NATS used to run a BA course after you had completed training which involved two fam flights on European sectors. Not sure if they still do this. I also believe when travelling standby if you are a pilot or controller you can get offered the jump seat..I may be wrong on that. I sat behind the crew once on a Twin Otter flight from Glasgow to Barra and listened intently as the pilots did all their checks and the like...then asked me to describe the women on board the plane for them.....Ahh those days of low security!
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I was interested to read this thread. My ATC unit encourages ATCOs to do at least one fam. flight per year as part of our annual TRUCE (TRaining in Unusual Circumstances & Emergencies). They are always arranged between unit management & the Ops. dept. of the airline concerned.
Having flown on the jumpseats of many aircraft types over the years, I have always been politely received & find the experience very useful & enjoyable. I would say that most ATCOs are well aware that a jumpseat ride is a privilege not a right in this post 9/11 world.
Putting faces to voices can only be a good thing!
Having flown on the jumpseats of many aircraft types over the years, I have always been politely received & find the experience very useful & enjoyable. I would say that most ATCOs are well aware that a jumpseat ride is a privilege not a right in this post 9/11 world.
Putting faces to voices can only be a good thing!
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I believe that it is important that both ATC and Flight Deck Crew do have as much understanding of each others environment. For an ATCO the FAM Flight (properly authorised and organised) deals with one side of the equation.
But what about Pilot, shouldn't they have visits to at least their Base Tower and one of the Centres. I do vaguely remember the odd semi-formal visit being arranged (many many years ago) do these still happen?
DIH
But what about Pilot, shouldn't they have visits to at least their Base Tower and one of the Centres. I do vaguely remember the odd semi-formal visit being arranged (many many years ago) do these still happen?
DIH
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 11th Nov 2005 at 22:02.
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Flt Deck FAM Flts
I agree with the concept of FAM flts, and have taken part in a number of them over the years. My work involves Flt Ops, Dispatch, Ops Control, Navigation, Avionics, Fuel, Payload, Communications and a load inbetween. Combine that with the Dep Ctrl, ATC in all their guises, Airline Ops and Planners and above all, the pilots themselves, and the Flt Deck would become a very busy place and so essential planning is well, ... essential.
Cooperation between all the elements that deliver an aircraft from origin to destination is vital. The crew carry out the delivery, but a lot of other work goes on prior, during and after each and every flight. No-one is more or less important than the next in a chain of professionals resposible for the safety of a million people every day.
In my experience, requested in advance, thru the proper channels, there will be a polite yes or no, and that should be final. The days of on-board, in-flight, ad-hoc requests are sadly no longer with us, but security should never be used as an excuse. Security is paramount. The reason is to keep free people safe. The result is safety in the air and on the ground.
Cooperation between all the elements that deliver an aircraft from origin to destination is vital. The crew carry out the delivery, but a lot of other work goes on prior, during and after each and every flight. No-one is more or less important than the next in a chain of professionals resposible for the safety of a million people every day.
In my experience, requested in advance, thru the proper channels, there will be a polite yes or no, and that should be final. The days of on-board, in-flight, ad-hoc requests are sadly no longer with us, but security should never be used as an excuse. Security is paramount. The reason is to keep free people safe. The result is safety in the air and on the ground.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 11th Nov 2005 at 22:07.
Ladies and gentlemen
There was a certain amount of unnecessary personal abuse going on within this thread. I've deleted it, hopefully leaving the more constructive and reasonable core of it alone.
If you feel that you made a point that I shouldn't have deleted, my apologies and please re-post it. However, if I may offer an important message - kick the ball, not the player. We're all on the same team.
Genghis
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There was a certain amount of unnecessary personal abuse going on within this thread. I've deleted it, hopefully leaving the more constructive and reasonable core of it alone.
If you feel that you made a point that I shouldn't have deleted, my apologies and please re-post it. However, if I may offer an important message - kick the ball, not the player. We're all on the same team.
Genghis
Admin.
