Revised and Improved Glasgow College Course (Merged)
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Normally Aspirated
We'll all keep our fingers crossed they got it right this time round then
I'll still wait for the course to be approved before I give it a second chance - once bitten !!
Thanks for the info NA
Rgds
FG
We'll all keep our fingers crossed they got it right this time round then
I'll still wait for the course to be approved before I give it a second chance - once bitten !!
Thanks for the info NA
Rgds
FG
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Having only one provider of a distance learning course for this subject is un-healthy, in my opinion.
City University and Oxford both expressed an interest in participation and this should be pursued by UKOMA , CAA and participating airlines.
Glasgow's first shot went astray and their follow up may not be much better. The course needs to be run on an OU basis with easy access to tutors and day schools, one per module of the syllabus and a regular system of TMA's.
That said the overall objective makes it compelling for all.
Nosig may I suggest you add this to the agenda of the next UKOMA meeting. Also I've got my yacht master ticket, fancy sailing sometime?
All the best
FEBA
City University and Oxford both expressed an interest in participation and this should be pursued by UKOMA , CAA and participating airlines.
Glasgow's first shot went astray and their follow up may not be much better. The course needs to be run on an OU basis with easy access to tutors and day schools, one per module of the syllabus and a regular system of TMA's.
That said the overall objective makes it compelling for all.
Nosig may I suggest you add this to the agenda of the next UKOMA meeting. Also I've got my yacht master ticket, fancy sailing sometime?
All the best
FEBA
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Re C&G Certificate in Airline Operations & Flight Despatch via distance learning with AVTECH 2000: any good?
I'm looking to leave the RAF for aviation related pastures new - currently have 3500 hours as rearcrew.
I'm looking to leave the RAF for aviation related pastures new - currently have 3500 hours as rearcrew.
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FEBA
If City University and Oxford are interested, that’s great. But, their interest may wane when they realise the commercial returns are limited. This was/is the problem I came up against when I first set out to find an institution to take this project on. But, I hope I'm wrong, as I think we're all agreed, the objective is to establish a single standard of Ops officer training in the UK and hopefully under the CAA/JAA. The more courses the better. As I said in my previous post, credit to Glasgow for taking this on and from what Opsbods is telling me the re-issued materials are a major improvement and we seem now to be back on track with the GCNS ICAO course.
FEBA, your point about an OU style approach is valid, and having watched my wife do one last year I agree, from what I'm hearing the College are moving that direction, but frankly I doubt it would match the OU, that’s a hard act to follow. It is perhaps relevant to note here that there are many ATPL students out there who are doing an equivalent course this way and getting through their licence exams, if you're committed, I have no doubt the materials from Glasgow will be more than adequate to get you through this course. Distance learning, as you'll know, requires dedication and self-motivation and this course is no different. I've watched many ops officers get through their ATPL's the same way, but it takes work, and support for sure.
FG, I trust you read my previous post regarding 'approval' of the course. The most significant approval this course is going to have is industry recognition and UKOMA have taken that on board, OpsBod perhaps can update on UKOMA activities.
I'd say to anyone that for European JAROPS this is the material to be studying. Where the FAA Dispatch ticket is a valuable licence if you want to work under the FAR's, remember that much of the learning comes with the airline you work with, after you have your licence, and it does not include JAROPS and ICAO weather. With the ICAO course you'll cover those subjects on the course.
Covec, I'd recommend you read the past postings on the subject above, I'd advise you to do the above rather than the C&G, particularly if you can apply for RAF Re-settlement support to pay for the course. The UK CAA and the JAA have have notified the intent to adopt the ICAO 7192 training syllabus as the basis for Ops Officer training ( see previous posts). Check out the Glasgow College of nautical Studies website and also the IAFALDA.org website has information on the job and the ICAO course working group.
If City University and Oxford are interested, that’s great. But, their interest may wane when they realise the commercial returns are limited. This was/is the problem I came up against when I first set out to find an institution to take this project on. But, I hope I'm wrong, as I think we're all agreed, the objective is to establish a single standard of Ops officer training in the UK and hopefully under the CAA/JAA. The more courses the better. As I said in my previous post, credit to Glasgow for taking this on and from what Opsbods is telling me the re-issued materials are a major improvement and we seem now to be back on track with the GCNS ICAO course.
FEBA, your point about an OU style approach is valid, and having watched my wife do one last year I agree, from what I'm hearing the College are moving that direction, but frankly I doubt it would match the OU, that’s a hard act to follow. It is perhaps relevant to note here that there are many ATPL students out there who are doing an equivalent course this way and getting through their licence exams, if you're committed, I have no doubt the materials from Glasgow will be more than adequate to get you through this course. Distance learning, as you'll know, requires dedication and self-motivation and this course is no different. I've watched many ops officers get through their ATPL's the same way, but it takes work, and support for sure.
FG, I trust you read my previous post regarding 'approval' of the course. The most significant approval this course is going to have is industry recognition and UKOMA have taken that on board, OpsBod perhaps can update on UKOMA activities.
I'd say to anyone that for European JAROPS this is the material to be studying. Where the FAA Dispatch ticket is a valuable licence if you want to work under the FAR's, remember that much of the learning comes with the airline you work with, after you have your licence, and it does not include JAROPS and ICAO weather. With the ICAO course you'll cover those subjects on the course.
Covec, I'd recommend you read the past postings on the subject above, I'd advise you to do the above rather than the C&G, particularly if you can apply for RAF Re-settlement support to pay for the course. The UK CAA and the JAA have have notified the intent to adopt the ICAO 7192 training syllabus as the basis for Ops Officer training ( see previous posts). Check out the Glasgow College of nautical Studies website and also the IAFALDA.org website has information on the job and the ICAO course working group.
Last edited by no sig; 8th Feb 2004 at 01:41.
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Nosig
Many thanks for your reply. Here's a thought that may have some potential. How about approaching the OU to support this syllabus? I'm not sure I agree with you regarding the commercial viability of the course from a college perspective, in my opinion the whole of Europe is available to these guys as a market. Now that's got to be enticing, it certainly interested Oxford when I spoke to them about it. Who knows, maybe the guys at Milton Keynes may be interested, once they've got over the Beagle disaster !
Rainbow , you know a thing or two about OU. Let's have your thoughts please.
Cheers
FEBA
Many thanks for your reply. Here's a thought that may have some potential. How about approaching the OU to support this syllabus? I'm not sure I agree with you regarding the commercial viability of the course from a college perspective, in my opinion the whole of Europe is available to these guys as a market. Now that's got to be enticing, it certainly interested Oxford when I spoke to them about it. Who knows, maybe the guys at Milton Keynes may be interested, once they've got over the Beagle disaster !
Rainbow , you know a thing or two about OU. Let's have your thoughts please.
Cheers
FEBA
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FEBA
I agree completely - having only one provider for such a course isn't good. A bit of competition should ensure higher standards for all concerned.
Re the OU - you've got the wrong man, officer! (Really, I have never had anything to do with it.)
Re the OU - you've got the wrong man, officer! (Really, I have never had anything to do with it.)
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no sig
Thanks for the info.
Must admit, as an outsider / newcomer: I'm very surprised that there is no industry standard for what obviously can be a stressful & flight safety critical job!
All the best.
PS Like the OU idea.......having gone through the ATPLs I know that the "established" schools ain't cheap! However, comparing any ground school cost against the cost of an IR......the costs pale!
Thanks for the info.
Must admit, as an outsider / newcomer: I'm very surprised that there is no industry standard for what obviously can be a stressful & flight safety critical job!
All the best.
PS Like the OU idea.......having gone through the ATPLs I know that the "established" schools ain't cheap! However, comparing any ground school cost against the cost of an IR......the costs pale!
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FEBA Et Al
I must say I concur with FEBA and Mr R, having only one provider for such a course is limiting, to open it out to competition would benefit us all.
Having said that I also agree with No Sig (for a change), it all comes down to commercial viability in the end, if there is not a large enough potential audience for such a course (and a suitable return for the effort involved) then the OU and Oxford wouldn't be interested, I'm sure there are more wanna be pilots for Oxford than wanna be Ops Controllers ......... ??
I did an OU course, god a number of years ago now, probably 10 or more. The material quality, tutor support, content etc were spot on, but the resources of the OU are vast. The efforts of UKOMA and No Sig should be applauded in getting "somebody" to take on the task, however their efforts were marred by the capability and failure of the GCNS to provide not only quality materials, but student support. I state again that I sincerely hope the revised version is better than the first, otherwise steer clear.
If Oxford or the OU could be brought on board I would sign up again tomorrow, but for now I'll sit back and wait.
No Sig, I did see the post reference approvals, a shame that we can't get an approval from the CAA, it would help a lot of people and steer them in the right direction if they really are wanna be Ops Controllers. People like Covec need sound advice on what they should do and to know they are not wasting their time/effort/finances in learning something they don't need. At least C&G (which I have done) and GCNS (The first version I have seen and was appalled) give potential employers an indication of skills learnt, which can then be developed. So from that point of view the GCNS is better than nothing, alas somewhat expensive for what it attempts to provide. C&G is good (or was 15 years ago) but doesn't go quite far enough, GCNS goes a little too far, a middle ground would be nice, maybe GCNS has now found that middle ground, I haven't seen version 2 so I can make no further comment.
Best regards
FG
Having said that I also agree with No Sig (for a change), it all comes down to commercial viability in the end, if there is not a large enough potential audience for such a course (and a suitable return for the effort involved) then the OU and Oxford wouldn't be interested, I'm sure there are more wanna be pilots for Oxford than wanna be Ops Controllers ......... ??
I did an OU course, god a number of years ago now, probably 10 or more. The material quality, tutor support, content etc were spot on, but the resources of the OU are vast. The efforts of UKOMA and No Sig should be applauded in getting "somebody" to take on the task, however their efforts were marred by the capability and failure of the GCNS to provide not only quality materials, but student support. I state again that I sincerely hope the revised version is better than the first, otherwise steer clear.
If Oxford or the OU could be brought on board I would sign up again tomorrow, but for now I'll sit back and wait.
No Sig, I did see the post reference approvals, a shame that we can't get an approval from the CAA, it would help a lot of people and steer them in the right direction if they really are wanna be Ops Controllers. People like Covec need sound advice on what they should do and to know they are not wasting their time/effort/finances in learning something they don't need. At least C&G (which I have done) and GCNS (The first version I have seen and was appalled) give potential employers an indication of skills learnt, which can then be developed. So from that point of view the GCNS is better than nothing, alas somewhat expensive for what it attempts to provide. C&G is good (or was 15 years ago) but doesn't go quite far enough, GCNS goes a little too far, a middle ground would be nice, maybe GCNS has now found that middle ground, I haven't seen version 2 so I can make no further comment.
Best regards
FG
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FG
I'm not sure that any of us can afford to be complacent. If the trade is to be given the professional status that common sense demands it have (like that of our colleagues in the USA) then a collective effort needs to be made. Having spoken with the CAA Flight Ops inspectorate i found general concensus of opinion for certification of operations controllers, in light of the reducing numbers of drivers on the flight deck and ever increasing workloads in busy airspace, it makes sense.
I am convinced that a European push in this direction will win the day fairly quickly, so we all must start the ball rolling.
Assuming that JAA ratifies Ops Controller licensing and training then your concerns re a market for the training course providers will disappear. I think now is a good time to start an effective campaign with international support (IFALDA at all) to lobby the JAA and CAA, commercial support would be welcomed too. I hope you do, too
Covec
Are you still working for Mrs Windsor aviation? If so, and are planning to resume civilian status shortly, I may have something of interest to you.
Brgds
FEBA
If Oxford or the OU could be brought on board I would sign up again tomorrow, but for now I'll sit back and wait.
I am convinced that a European push in this direction will win the day fairly quickly, so we all must start the ball rolling.
Assuming that JAA ratifies Ops Controller licensing and training then your concerns re a market for the training course providers will disappear. I think now is a good time to start an effective campaign with international support (IFALDA at all) to lobby the JAA and CAA, commercial support would be welcomed too. I hope you do, too
Covec
Are you still working for Mrs Windsor aviation? If so, and are planning to resume civilian status shortly, I may have something of interest to you.
Brgds
FEBA
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FEBA
Always interested, thank you. I have 2 years left "to do" though.
I prefer to keep my email address discrete......just in case the Desk Officer gets to know too much!
Always interested, thank you. I have 2 years left "to do" though.
I prefer to keep my email address discrete......just in case the Desk Officer gets to know too much!
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FEBA
I wouldn't say I was being complacent, but if the JAA does decide to "licence" or "approve" Operations Controllers (and I hope it does), then we MUST have an acceptable standard of course materials and content as per DOC7192. The OU or Oxford would be a far better bet than the previous version of the GCNS course. If version 2 is closer to the mark then that's better.
I for one am not prepared to fork out £1200 on another sub standard course, so my comment ref sitting back is purely in this context, I will sit back and wait for a decent training course, which if we are to be licenced, must precede leglislation.
Good luck
Rgds
FG
I for one am not prepared to fork out £1200 on another sub standard course, so my comment ref sitting back is purely in this context, I will sit back and wait for a decent training course, which if we are to be licenced, must precede leglislation.
Good luck
Rgds
FG
Last edited by famous grouse; 10th Feb 2004 at 06:40.
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Sorry, but if you read back the CAA and the JAA have specifically ruled out the licencing of ops staff in their papers. That doesn't mean however, that course completion and the passing of a set of exams to gain accreditdation/certification of a ICAO flight ops standard isn't worth anything, on the contrary, it is in all ways a de facto licence and most worthwhile for the airline and the individual. The requirement to licence brings in a whole raft of legislation and regulation and, as far as I can see is very unlikely at the present.
Although a convert to the FAR dispatch system, I can also see that we can 'up' the European/UK ops position to a much more professional status provided we have a 'standard of training and accredidation or certification. And most importantly in all this, is the requirement to have ops officer training standards included in the Ops Manual Part D, this brings us side by side with our aircrew colleauges and acknowledges the important role we play.
Although a convert to the FAR dispatch system, I can also see that we can 'up' the European/UK ops position to a much more professional status provided we have a 'standard of training and accredidation or certification. And most importantly in all this, is the requirement to have ops officer training standards included in the Ops Manual Part D, this brings us side by side with our aircrew colleauges and acknowledges the important role we play.
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Nosig
No arguement with your post, I think everyone supports the notion that Ops people in Europe should be trained certified to strictly controlled standards by the JAA and their local CAA.
However;
" the CAA and the JAA have specifically ruled out the licencing of ops staff in their papers"
This is true but they said the same of CRM, now it's a mandatory part of crew training. I think our arguement for certification, licensing and formalised training on a pan Euro basis, is far stronger than that of CRM.
We need to orchestrate our appeal to the authorities so as to speak with one voice. This should start with UKOMA and then some sort of congress formed. What do you think?
FEBA
No arguement with your post, I think everyone supports the notion that Ops people in Europe should be trained certified to strictly controlled standards by the JAA and their local CAA.
However;
" the CAA and the JAA have specifically ruled out the licencing of ops staff in their papers"
This is true but they said the same of CRM, now it's a mandatory part of crew training. I think our arguement for certification, licensing and formalised training on a pan Euro basis, is far stronger than that of CRM.
We need to orchestrate our appeal to the authorities so as to speak with one voice. This should start with UKOMA and then some sort of congress formed. What do you think?
FEBA
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Nice to see a sensible interesting debate on this site for once. If UKOMA is to be the voice of UK Airlines of witch I think it is becoming, then if a standard training syllabus is adopted by them and used by its members then its only a mater of time until the authorities adopt it and recommend its use. Any standardisation is a great step forward.
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Standardisation
Homelesssid,
The thing JAR and CAA are both saying is that Airlines should train their staff in accordance with ICAO Doc 7192-D3 standards.
As you say this can only be good for everyone since 7192 defines what theoretical knowledge operations staff should have. However, as much as nosig, I, and others are pushing this matter forwards, there will be a requirement the operations officers to want to improve themselves.
Training to 7192 requires an extensive amount of study time, no UK carrier will be able to release each and every operations staff member to complete the training so there will be a requirement for Ops officers to want study in their own time and develop themselves, the result should be a better career path for those of you that do.
Whilst UKOMA will continue to push for recognition of operation's part within the industry the operations officers will also have to do their part.
The thing JAR and CAA are both saying is that Airlines should train their staff in accordance with ICAO Doc 7192-D3 standards.
As you say this can only be good for everyone since 7192 defines what theoretical knowledge operations staff should have. However, as much as nosig, I, and others are pushing this matter forwards, there will be a requirement the operations officers to want to improve themselves.
Training to 7192 requires an extensive amount of study time, no UK carrier will be able to release each and every operations staff member to complete the training so there will be a requirement for Ops officers to want study in their own time and develop themselves, the result should be a better career path for those of you that do.
Whilst UKOMA will continue to push for recognition of operation's part within the industry the operations officers will also have to do their part.
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FEBA
I do agree with you and in fact you make a very good point about training being mandatory. If our CAA and the JAA require Ops Officers to be trained per our Ops Manual Part D, which needs to meet ICAO, then there is no getting away from it- training is mandatory.
If you can demonstrate that you have completed a 'recognised or approved' course then you save any potential employer the need to train you, it follows that is a saving to a company and makes you more attractive. Your course completion certificate then becomes job currency. Job adverts will start to specify that 'applicants must posses the ICAO Flight OPS certificate....etc etc.
Opsbod makes the point well, few companies are prepared to release you from the Ops room for the time required to complete the course. Therefore, individuals need to recognise that, just as most pilots have to do when they do their licence preparation, you will need to study! Even if you've been in Ops for years and think you already know it all. Just the same if you wanted to go an work under FAR, you need that ticket.
And if I may, it brings us back full circle to the reasons we went for a distance learning course like the Glasgow College to make it accessible, practical and affordable for your average Ops officer.
OpsBod can you give us an update on the GCNS new notes release?
I do agree with you and in fact you make a very good point about training being mandatory. If our CAA and the JAA require Ops Officers to be trained per our Ops Manual Part D, which needs to meet ICAO, then there is no getting away from it- training is mandatory.
If you can demonstrate that you have completed a 'recognised or approved' course then you save any potential employer the need to train you, it follows that is a saving to a company and makes you more attractive. Your course completion certificate then becomes job currency. Job adverts will start to specify that 'applicants must posses the ICAO Flight OPS certificate....etc etc.
Opsbod makes the point well, few companies are prepared to release you from the Ops room for the time required to complete the course. Therefore, individuals need to recognise that, just as most pilots have to do when they do their licence preparation, you will need to study! Even if you've been in Ops for years and think you already know it all. Just the same if you wanted to go an work under FAR, you need that ticket.
And if I may, it brings us back full circle to the reasons we went for a distance learning course like the Glasgow College to make it accessible, practical and affordable for your average Ops officer.
OpsBod can you give us an update on the GCNS new notes release?
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Nosig
I think we need a tete a tete, I'm not sure how many contributers to this forum there are with our experience of FAR and FAA dispatch, we need a get together with all of them.
The reasons, as I see it, for regulated dispatch/operations control in Europe are complex and need to be fully exposed and documented to form part of convincing case. Here's a few to start with
1) Hapag Lloyd A310
2) Avianca B707 JFK
3) FAR 121. ? (memory fails me) domestic carrier or domestic sector fuel reserves burn plus 45 minutes (no alternate fuel) providing wx forecast at destination 2hr prior and 1hr after planned arrival is vis 3 miles cb 2000 ft. I haven't got the book and its a long time since I did it, you may wish to correct me. However if JAA adopted this principle on the basis that a flight following system of qualified ground based personnel must be in force, think of the fuel savings for the bucket and spade operators to the Med in summer. A future polution tax on airliners may well sharpen some folks interest in this
I think we need a tete a tete, I'm not sure how many contributers to this forum there are with our experience of FAR and FAA dispatch, we need a get together with all of them.
The reasons, as I see it, for regulated dispatch/operations control in Europe are complex and need to be fully exposed and documented to form part of convincing case. Here's a few to start with
1) Hapag Lloyd A310
2) Avianca B707 JFK
3) FAR 121. ? (memory fails me) domestic carrier or domestic sector fuel reserves burn plus 45 minutes (no alternate fuel) providing wx forecast at destination 2hr prior and 1hr after planned arrival is vis 3 miles cb 2000 ft. I haven't got the book and its a long time since I did it, you may wish to correct me. However if JAA adopted this principle on the basis that a flight following system of qualified ground based personnel must be in force, think of the fuel savings for the bucket and spade operators to the Med in summer. A future polution tax on airliners may well sharpen some folks interest in this
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Lots of interesting views. I am an RAF Flight Operations Manager about to make the leap into civvy strasse, exit date is Dec this year. I enrolled on the course at its inception and like many was disappointed with the quality et al. I have received module one of the new batch and feel a bit more comfortable with the content.
Now then, in addition to all the points listed above, for me the point of enrolling was to expand my RAF operations knowledge and understand better the complexities of the subject as a whole and develop an awareness of the way it is done in the real world to prepare me for when I leave.
If anyone is feeling generous and want's to post any hints and tips I will be most grateful. I live south of Norwich so Stansted is less than 1 hr and EGSH is about 20 mins. Anything considered.
Now then, in addition to all the points listed above, for me the point of enrolling was to expand my RAF operations knowledge and understand better the complexities of the subject as a whole and develop an awareness of the way it is done in the real world to prepare me for when I leave.
If anyone is feeling generous and want's to post any hints and tips I will be most grateful. I live south of Norwich so Stansted is less than 1 hr and EGSH is about 20 mins. Anything considered.