Engineers - Keep Your Status!
 

Got this email earlier today:

Thanks. Huw

Over 13,000 now :ok:

From the petition creator...
So thats me out then.:(
Seems a CAA License 25 years in the job and a HNC aint good enough.:*

Bleedin primadonnas these njunears!!

I suggest "Astronautics engineer Jon Jennings" looks the word engineer up in the dictionary. I think you'll all find it humbling!:hmm:
I suppose doctors will be giving out about the tree doctors not being real doctors next.
Anyway what does it really mean, title doesn't get you respect anymore this is the real world. Actions get respect.
Why not petition no. 10 for free UNI education for all who meet the educational standard, and maybe then the UK can catch up.

The Continentals have the title Ingenieur (spelling?) and those entitled to call themselves Engineers - basically a Masters in Engineering plus post grad specialist qualifications - replace their Mister, Messieur or Herr with Ingenieur.

Thus: Eur. Ing. Maurice Bluesheep.

In UK we still trail the designation behind our name - hence: George Brownfag C.Eng, MSc, MRAeS. Since we are now honorary Europeans, if George pays the cash up front and gets his paperwork approved he can be Eur. Ing. Georg Brownfag.

Not many do it though. My brother is a PhD in civil engineering but prefers his C.Eng to any other titles.

"Its a proper British thing..." he says, "...and besides all the best engineers in history were British - Watt, Stevenson, Brunel. Who needs a Frog qualification? When I travel to the Continent they can call me Doctor Blacksheep."

Patriotic is my brother, not to mention a slight touch of xenophobia. :uhoh:

An Aircraft Engineer is someone who is Licensed and makes decisions every day and takes responsibility for the aircraft where as An Aircraft Mechanic is an un-licensced guy who where, they do still do a lot of the work don't take responsibility or make the same judgments that the person who has gained the qualifications does.

Where as a car mechanic may do an HNC it is a far more advanced course to gain a Licensce and then go on to gain types on top of that, Plus your normal Aircraft Engineer will drill/rivet/do sheet metal repairs, use complex test equipment and fault diagnose multiple complex systems.

So to me a fully qualified Licensced Engineer deserves the title and should be respected for their qualifications and Knowledge.

NST

Clue!;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...titled-2-1.jpg

WOW an "old" Licence book!
The new ones I'm sure actually say "Aircraft maintenance licence".
Look Engineer up in the dictionary:
1) http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...5686&dict=CALD
2) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/engineer?view=uk.
We're all engineers just different types!!!!
Education requirements as an engineer is based on the industry in which you operate whether it be plumbing, cars, aircraft, rockets etc etc.

Old - Mr Brown - Old! :uhoh: I'll show you Old! :p

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...titled-2-2.jpg

Now that's old !!

If you go to the States and tell them that you are an engineer they think you drive a freight train, so I suppose its a national understanding.

The new Part 66 plastic licence book does indeed miss out the word Engineer, however all is not lost, if you feel that you require to be formally recognised as an Engineer, then join the RAeS and register as Eng. Tech, or I Eng , see the other thread running on this subject. it is possible for a senior LAE holding a management position to register as a C Eng.

I think that we may be our own worst enemies in this, it is now common for all grades of mech, tech, LAE to be refered to as Engineers, even in employment contracts and so on,

Best regards,
om15

I couldn't care less what I'm called as long as it's not 'grease monkey'. My maroon book is titled Aircraft Maintenance Engineer's Licence but I wouldn't actually consider myself as an 'engineer' proper (Etymology: Middle English engineour, from Anglo-French, from enginer to devise, construct, from engin).
We're not going to get any more respect by insisting we're addressed as engineers (as Mr Brown intimated), any more than a cleaner demanding to be classified as a 'sanitation operative'.
As long as the pay's in the bank at the end of the month, I'll quite happily be a tech, mech, maintainer or spannerbender.

Speaking of licences, I was rather miffed to have my AMEL number changed from 223** to 409***%. You could generally date someone by his/her old licence number. :*

Damned if I know what I am any more, but since I have two degrees in engineering, and an inspectors ticket, the word "Engineer" usually applies.

I'd vote for protection of the title - to at-least restrict the title to those with formal professional qualifications; I don't mind if that's CEng, LAME, or a 4-year apprenticeship at Dagenham - but I do object to its use by somebody who has done a 3 week course in servicing photocopiers.

G

The new EASA part66 licences have no reference to engineer as Europe now see's us as technicians.
I'm not bothered I'm still the same person doing the same job and getting paid the same.

Certifying technicians I think :ooh:

ICAO Annex One provides the international guidelines for the licensing of Aircraft Maintenance Engineers.

The ICAO Type I and Type II Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) licences have been superseded by a single Aircraft Maintenance Engineer licence since November 1998 (see Annex 1, Chapter 4, paragraph 4.2).
So, US A & P Mechanics are really LAMEs, Certifying Technicians are LAMEs - anyone with an ICAO licence is a LAME.

In UK, a LAME can gain professional registration through the RAeS - provided they can demonstrate the necessary background and experience and are willing to subject themselves to interrogation by...
The Assessors. :ooh:

Actually, it was quite a pleasant day trip to London and the assessors were OK - a bit like an old-time CAA Oral, but three-on-one instead of the old one to one face-off.

RAeS
 

Blacksheep

Just been reading through the RAes website. Can you expand a bit more on what you went through to gain IEng. With the alternative route for A&C X or B or C licenced engineers, what did your application consist of and did you compile a report or was it just like the coffee and biscuit chat nightmare of the old oral? Oh, and how much?!

Whilst I sympathise with the intent, chartered engineers do indeed deserve greater respect, I believe it is an apallingly worded petition:

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Professional Status For Engineers and Engineering."

to what?


Sounds like Borat.

I Eng, C Eng.
 

Litebulbs,
There was thread running about three weeks ago on here regarding Chartership, that gives some gen, to recap,
An ALE with experience can apply for I Eng, this should be awarded without any submission, but I believe that you now need to do a Professional Review, which is a tea and biscuits job, if you wish to apply for C Eng then the route is the Technical Report Option, whereby you submit a technical synopsis on your chosen subject, if acceptable you then have a peroid of time to present your paper to the assessors, if this is acceptable then the next step is the technical interview, the 3 person panel will comprise of an RAeS Standards Officer and the two technical assessors who have reviewed the paper, the intent is carry out an informal interview to discuss the paper, the aim is to have the two assessors from different backgrounds, therefore one assessor may be from a University and the other from industry, this is not a daunting experience, and is unlike a CAA oral.
You can find out more about this from the Engineering Council website or follow links on the RAeS website, I mentioned on the other thread that 23 Applicants have submitted applications for C Eng registration via the TRO but only one has completed in the past two years.

Best regards,
om15

It will be a cold day in hell before Tony Bliar will be qualified to determine who does or does not have professional status. Let him stick to pontificating upon Jade Goody and the other denizens of the Big Brother house.

Good heavens! If we let the politicians have anything to do with the profession, in no time at all people will be buying Chartered Engineer status! :rolleyes:

Litebulbs - I didn't follow the alternative route for LAMEs, it only came in last September, so I don't know what it involves. Check with the RAeS for specific details: my guess is that there are no fixed guidelines and each case is checked on its individual merit. Assuming their individual background check is accepted, LAMEs will still have to do a professional review.

In my case I was working in Technical Services as Section Head and was already MRAeS. I had to fill in the forms and submit them with a brief summary of a technical project I'd undertaken. I was invited for a Professional Review at the RAeS and asked to bring the evidence of my qualifications (my degree, licenses, course certificates, etc.) and samples of my work - a Modification, some SB assessments and some samples of Engineering Orders. These serve to both prove your claimed background & experience and provide the basis for discussion.

There are two assessors (there was an 'extra' sitting in on mine - a CAA chap who was being trained as an IEng assessor). The focus was on the Engineer's role in society, including the economic and social impact of what we do. It didn't take long but they did make me sweat a bit - you wouldn't be able to bluff your way through. Imagine being asked to give an off-the-cuff presentation on the socio-economic impact of installing TCAS as a retrofit modification and you'll get some idea of what's involved.

I can't remember what it all cost but it wasn't an arm and a leg - apart from Mrs B being let on the loose in Oxford Street while I was in Hamilton Place.

I Eng.
 

Litebulbs
Try http://www.raes.org.uk/ and then follow "membership joining and upgrading" then to "membership-individuals" and at the bottom of this page "CLICK HERE" and then select "GI Eng" this leaflet will give you all the information that you need to make a decision on your own circumstances regarding an application to join.
If you go to the C Eng route I think that the TRO costs are pretty stiff, I think that its £500 ish at the moment, and annual renewals are
£177 for MRAes plus £26 for Engineering Council fees.

The applications and interviews are not meant to be daunting, I help out as an assessor for C Eng and I Eng applications, and have recieved training on exactly how assessors should do the job, please don't be put off by horror stories about the process. the RAeS will also provide a mentor to help and advise at all steps in the process.

I think that any B1/B2/C licensed guy with a bit of experience can register as I Eng without any problems, and should be able to complete the TRO route for C Eng with some application

Best regards,
om15

Do you work on the further learning council om15?

Thanks all

I am a B2 and C with 20+ years experinence, of which 10+ is certifying and I have accumulated a fair amount of cover in this time. Could I talk about the socio-economic impact of a TCAS mod? No. Is this the sort of subject matter that I would have to research before applying for an I Eng? I will have another look at the web site and any further advice would be greatly appreciated.

hi McAero,

No I haven't had involvement there, about 3 or 4 years ago the RAeS sent round a circular to members who were registered C Eng requesting people to volunteer to be Technical assessors, this involved training at Hamilton Place by the RAeS and the Engineering Council, this dealt with the changes to the methods of registration and standards required, and instructions for assessors, my role has been purely technical, and I have no experience of the Review assessment process that was described by Blacksheep, or any of the other many activities carried out by the RAeS.
The theme of this thread is the standing in society of Engineers, although those of us that work in aviation have varied qualifications, HNC, Degrees, AMEL etc, the RAeS does provide a means of registering with the Engineering Council in a grade that is perhaps more commonly recognised by general society than our own specific qualifications.
As mentioned earlier, what is important is how we see ourselves and do our jobs, if the public don't understand what an AMEL is, well does it really matter?

If a car salesman takes a PPL in his spare time, he is quite entitled to stroll around descibing himself as a pilot, we know this isn't quite the same as 10,000 hour 747 Captain, all a matter perception by the public really.

Best regards,
om15

Litebulbs,
Sure, have a read of the web site, all the gen is in there somewhere, if you need further info or do decide to proceed, then pm me, and if I can be of help, only too happy to do so,

Best regards, om15

If you're a 'C' license LAME with 20 years experience you'll have no difficulty at all in registering as an Incorporated Engineer Litebulbs (Though making the leap from there to CEng without the basic MEng degree is a considerable challenge. Personally, I'm working towards Chartered Manager as that is where my academic qualifications lie, but I'll always describe my profession as "Engineer".)

Applicants for IEng must be able to demonstrate an understanding of the position of the engineer's role in society within the bounds of what they do: I was in Technical Services and things like TCAS mods were routine stuff. You're running Base Maintenance checks so think of the benefits and responsibilites to society associated with that role. You know them well enough, so it should be no problem.

The RAeS make a better cup of tea than the CAA too. :ok:

IIIIIIIIII Fix aireplane, but I be good at it. :ok:

The above has always been more important to me and fortunately has paid more than the title (engineer). :=

Well done
 

Hope you guys win this one.

Worked in France, title engineer very controlled: Advantage was you said you where an engineer you pulled women the same way a doctor did :D (ok I was young and they thought engineers had money )
Austria, the apartment door bells have the Ing in front of the Surname, just like a Dr.
Germany, well Germany you need to spend years in uni and be a doctor of eng before you get anywhere, look at say Luftansa manager titles, it is scary the amount of Dr's etc (so your working life spent paying of student debts)

Back to UK and yes I was back to level of respect with the photocopier repair man, so job title became "In aviation business" much better starting line

Why did I leave europe. MONEY

You can call me "chief bottle washer" as long as you pay me enough.
Respect/disrepect for title does not pay the bills and to be honest when I get business cards followed by all those titles I can only but smile to myself and think pl**ker.

Regarding the bank registering the engineers as semi-skilled. Actually all the bank is worried about is money that you are paid, not title, so if you think respect for engineer is going to get you a bigger house loan, dream on. Graduates of nearly all titles they give leeway as on average they earn more in the longer term so the bank has a better prospect of getting bigger fees on transactions (Dr in ancient greek classics etc excepted)

And me, I am a BEng(Aero) and other stuff, but that gets you only your first job (and you start as a run around for the more mature engineers as nothing as dangerous as a newly minted graduate who thinks he/she knows it all)

Just respect everybody, regardless of title (except divorce lawyers):ok:

A number of years ago the chairman of the licensed engineers group within the RAES (Ron Forrester) attended a seminar or similar meeting attended by a large number of the other UK professional engineering bodies. Institute of marine engineers, electrical engineers, e.t.c.

He gave a briefing on the "licensed engineer" and the scope of the engineers licence.

After the meeting a large number of people from the other bodies expressed their amazement at the scope and level of responsibilty that was placed on the licensed aircraft engineer.

Licensed engineers should never sell themselves short.

What a load of b0ll0cks all of you primadonna "engineers" talk. It's just a job which involves a bit of responsibility. I'm sure that some of you guys walk out of your front doors in the morning with your (well travelled) nav bags with all the stickers attached feeling very proud and hoping that the pretty young neighbour at No 23 is watching you and thinking how important you must be, especially if you wear stripes! And down at the pub you'll be the centre of attraction as you recall decisions that you've had to make to ensure the safety of the travelling public. I bet you don't recall the bogs and basins that you've had to unblock or the times you spend up to your elbows in grease and cr@p, that's not so impressive is it? I believe that the true engineers designed and built the aircraft and we as licenced personnel maintain them. What's in a name when there's a nappy stuck down a lav?

As an apprentice engineer I have witnessed that the term "Engineer" is by far and away overused and has lost much of its true definition.

Many people in workplaces are referred to as "Engineers", yet all they do is paperwork. This is absolutely NOT engineering. It is Administration.

Engineers are involved in the design, development, manufacture, test and maintenance of products, whether they be circuit boards, bridges across rivers, aeroplanes, cars, whatever. Producing paperwork is NOT "Engineering", never has been and never will be, and nobody who does can call themselves "Engineers".

I cannot call myself an "Engineer" either however, I am merely an apprentice just now, almost finished my Electronics HNC, doing my Mech Eng HNC starting September. However I will be an "Eng" once I'm done with College.

This obsession with "Engineering" titles is merely one part of the modern fad of Office Wallahs inventing new job titles to sex up there boring, mundane and generally completely unecissary Office Wallah jobs where they sit on the internet all day, e-mail their mates and generally bum about. Think about it. "Engineer" sounds interesting. Certainly a lot more so than "Jobsworth who does unecissary paperwork". Also it makes the advert in the jobs section of the paper sound more attractive.

P.S. Spannerhead - nothing wrong with getting the hands dirty, real engineers always do:ok:

Cracker spannerhead. :ok: :ok: Made me laugh! I think you and I would get on.

I know, I know, you've seen it before.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...titled-2-2.jpg

Engineering Admin in fact. I'm not sure anyone in the drafting office would agree with you though... :p

Sanitary Engineer? :}

Blacksheep
"I'm not sure anyone in the drafting office would agree with you though..."

Ah, no worries, since draughting is part of the design process. I've always been a bit crap at draughting (drawings that is, not farting:E) though.

I had a read at the petition, I agree with where they're coming from however I think it's a bit pompous to say that you can only be called an "Engineer" if you are University-educated. That's a bit unfair surely to all of those who have worked hard for Engineering qualifications below Uni level and are in Engineering jobs. Also, plumbers and electricians etc. are technically engineers since they are doing engineering work of a sort (focusing on the maintenance/repair side of things). As I have said previously, what I do reject however is people who, for example, sit doing paperwork all day or any other non-engineering work being called "Engineers". I think this is one of the reasons why Engineers and indeed Engineering as a whole is very undervalued in Britain today.

Drafting or Draughting? - depends on your orientation. I've been working American aircraft for 30 years and the American English tends to rub off on you.
Our Head of Engineering attends meetings and does paperwork all day and I think the last time he used his tools on an aeroplane was about twenty years ago. I reckon he's still an Engineer though. Same goes for me - and neither of us has an engineering degree. My brother holds a PhD in Civil Engineering and he designs and builds power stations. He hasn't mixed any cement or laid a brick in thirty years, but don't try telling him he's not an Engineer.

spannerhead, you got it partially right.

However, I save the bogs n basins story, complete with nappy and needles just when it's my round.

It's strange, no one seems to want to accept a drink out of ones grubby mits after that. :}

"I had a read at the petition, I agree with where they're coming from however I think it's a bit pompous to say that you can only be called an "Engineer" if you are University-educated. That's a bit unfair surely to all of those who have worked hard for Engineering qualifications below Uni level and are in Engineering jobs. "
The teachers went down the road of you can only teach if you have a degree, and look where it has got them!
The Royal Aeronautical Society's magazine Aerospace has an article on the society setting up a group to further enhance the status of the aircraft Engineer, things are looking promising for the future

Keel-Beam.

Speaking as a degree educated Engineer - I agree with you totally.

G

This petition is not about keeping the status of the Engineer but about changing the meaning of the word "Engineer" in every day use := . I think Licensed aircraft maintenance Engineers should be more concerned about protecting the licence they worked hard for.
Even the ALAE do not support this petition.:D