Brexit and Engineers
Any LAME’s here considering converting their licence from U.K. CAA to Irish IAA or similar incase of no deal Brexit? It seems a popular transfer with pilots, how about engineers? Discuss... |
Going on the information issued by the Government recently, I'm going to have to look into it I think. I work overseas (outside of Europe) for a company that has EASA 145 & 147 approval so currently recognises my licence and any training I do through them can go my licence. However, come March next year it maybe the case that it will be changed to a UK CAA B1 of which it is unclear if my company will even recognise. It will all come down to whether they generalise it as a ICAO standard licence but haven't seen any info from QA on it as yet.
The other questions is, if I did convert to another EASA NAA licence, do I effectively surrender my UK licence and any entitlement to a future UK CAA licence post March? So, has anyone been down this path and any recommendations as to which NAA would be the best? It used to be the case that the UK CAA EASA AML was the one to have! The CAA micro site is https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/licensed-engineers/ for those that do not subscribe to Skywise. |
For everyone's information, DfT has just published a detailed clarification of possible outcomes. As to the best NAA, given the EASA-wide standardisation of regulations, it's effectively down to which one is the easiest to deal with. I'd bet on smaller countries.
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I don't think we should panic, but we should be investigating all our options and be prepared. I have just looked out my CAA license cover ready for the replacement license which be issued (I believe).to cover all those who are resident or employed in the U.K. whose EASA license was issued by the CAA. The CAA are not noted for their alacrity in reacting to changing circumstances. Many people, who meet the requirements, have already licenses issued by the state in which they are working. But I believe that by March next year something will be in place, the U.K. aviation industry is not going to stop. I haven't worked in Europe for a number of years so I am not sure if going to another EASA state for a license will need some kind of residency or employer requirement, but I suspect that it might. Along with many engineers I have a foreign (non EASA) license, and shortly may have another. Will be interesting if they will be accepted by EASA land airworthiness authorities for validation
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engineers & technicians
I want to write easa part 66 module exam, which is best training center uae ,please guide me
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The CAA is at least doing something in preparation for Brexit: On LinkdIn there are adverts for Part 21 Design & Production Surveyors to form a new section for the UK - I assume BCAR solutions for UK designers, manufacturers and test houses...and there are quite a few of those to convert!
I would assume that the CAA's initial response, once the future is confirmed, would be to send all UK LAE's a letter explaining what to do next - and attempt to avoid a panic driven mass conversion crisis (again). |
Originally Posted by sankara
(Post 10260866)
I want to write easa part 66 module exam, which is best training center uae ,please guide me
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Originally Posted by Rigga
(Post 10263293)
The CAA is at least doing something in preparation for Brexit: On LinkdIn there are adverts for Part 21 Design & Production Surveyors to form a new section for the UK - I assume BCAR solutions for UK designers, manufacturers and test houses...and there are quite a few of those to convert!
I would assume that the CAA's initial response, once the future is confirmed, would be to send all UK LAE's a letter explaining what to do next - and attempt to avoid a panic driven mass conversion crisis (again). |
In the last change of Licences JAR66-Part66, there was a cross-over period of five years - the longest life of a Licence - to prevent people panicking and clogging up the renewal/replacement system....and it generally worked.
So, using that example, with a two year period the CAA is likely to get a bit bunged upIF the EASA folk don't reciprocate with a like-minded deal. (incidentally, it will be political pressure, not EASA pressure, that denies a reasonable deal in aviation). We all hope it won't come to that and a reasonable deal will emerge. Don't forget that the writing on the website is about the WORST outcome. I waited until my JAR license expired to renew/replace it the the new 'standard'. Now, luckily, all my Types are all lapsed so I don't NEED my licence like most guys that can see this...I can wait. |
can't do anything at present without giving up your CAA licence . You can only hold EASA from one country.
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Originally Posted by bvcu
(Post 10265901)
can't do anything at present without giving up your CAA licence . You can only hold EASA from one country.
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I'm betting it will be take a felt tip cross out EASA and add CAA...carry on.
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Nutloose. have you read the document?
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I have but I also remember the changes we went through getting the 66 sorted, mine only finally got corrected about a year ago.
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10266168)
I have but I also remember the changes we went through getting the 66 sorted, mine only finally got corrected about a year ago.
Be better if we actually get engineers doing engineer licences rather than box ticking clerks Ttfn |
Don't forget that, before JAR/EASA 66 came to power, the internationally appreciated CAA BCAR A,C,E,X,I & R almost ruled the world. The new BCAR will undoubtedly mirror the EASA 66 classifications and rank as an ICAO equivalent AML - without the 'level' playing field of EASA vagueness.
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Originally Posted by Rigga
(Post 10288071)
Don't forget that, before JAR/EASA 66 came to power, the internationally appreciated CAA BCAR A,C,E,X,I & R almost ruled the world. The new BCAR will undoubtedly mirror the EASA 66 classifications and rank as an ICAO equivalent AML - without the 'level' playing field of EASA vagueness.
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Originally Posted by ivor toolbox
(Post 10288050)
Mine has never been correct,despite many arguments with licensing and somehow at last renewal they lost my light aircraft entitlement.
Be better if we actually get engineers doing engineer licences rather than box ticking clerks Ttfn It was then later correctly added to the group, but was still listed both in and out of the group on my licence', Pointing out I could certify it under my group rating, the letter from the CAA clerks telling me you can have a full group rating but without all of the aircraft in the said group had my jaw on the floor, the if it's not in the group then you cannot have a full group rating fell on deaf ears until thankfully someone of late realised the farce it was and corrected it at my last renewal. Ohh I wish for a simpler time when you asked the question what is its MAUW and is it pressurised and that was it, without having to refer to lists of types to see where it resides today. |
I just wish you could get thru to talk to someone who understood what you are on about. I recently tried to contact the Licensing section & used the email link direct from the website only to have the email doesn't exist message, got thru on the phone & after 10 minutes was told the email address on the website is incorrect it has an extra dot in it. Finally sent the email & got an automated reply telling me that it could take 18 working days to reply to a non technical question & up to 30 for a technical one. We pay high fees for this service & you wouldn't except it from anyone else you would just swap provider. if this is the future we're all doomed. |
I wish we could go back to those days instead of feeding the money hungry beauracracy...... |
Irish joke
Originally Posted by tux
(Post 10258264)
Any LAME’s here considering converting their licence from U.K. CAA to Irish IAA or similar incase of no deal Brexit? It seems a popular transfer with pilots, how about engineers? Discuss... |
Originally Posted by Rigga
(Post 10288071)
Don't forget that, before JAR/EASA 66 came to power, the internationally appreciated CAA BCAR A,C,E,X,I & R almost ruled the world.
By the way, Kuchan; here is some CAA advice; If you wish to continue to release EU-registered aircraft to service you would need to transfer your licence to the National Aviation Authority of another EASA member state before exit day. You are advised to have a discussion with the relevant NAA as soon as possible about their process and timetable for transfers. |
" I have heard old skool BCARs tell me they blagged ****e. And got away with it. Time will tell what happens and we will find out were we are with out people's bull**** and views of the past will be the same as the furture. "
With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say. Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew. |
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
(Post 10304630)
" I have heard old skool BCARs tell me they blagged ****e. And got away with it. Time will tell what happens and we will find out were we are with out people's bull**** and views of the past will be the same as the furture. "
With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say. Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew. My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on! Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence |
Originally Posted by Rigga
(Post 10305529)
I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on! Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence |
Originally Posted by Rigga
(Post 10305529)
I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on! Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence |
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
(Post 10306055)
With hindsight, I think that was a UK wide policy, official or otherwise, regarding the initial issue of a Licence in that the Surveyor needed to establish your depth of knowledge and credibility. Thereafter, as you say, those delightful little meetings became progressively shorter.
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Transferring to another NAA works in the short term , but only for 2 years , after that who knows ? I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences ! How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ? What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ? These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though ! |
I had the unfortunate error of having my Section L oral in the afternoon, someone I knew had his in the morning and the surveyor afterwards unbeknown to me picked his brains about the types I was doing and asked me those questions in the afternoon.
I worked on the principal that they only have so long to ask you questions so went for a simple engine type, airframe type and and my A and C together, that way when he was questioning me my logic dictated he would have to work his A and C questions to my type specific ratings, which he did. :) So I got my licences with type ratings on from day one, though had to study 4 subjects at once. |
Originally Posted by TinyTim2
(Post 10312345)
Transferring to another NAA works in the short term , but only for 2 years , after that who knows ? I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences ! How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ? What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ? These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though ! What fun. |
In which case there will need to be an agreement in place, or air travel will just about cease overnight, in which case I think it will be rectified if not before, definately shortly afterwards.
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10313866)
In which case there will need to be an agreement in place, or air travel will just about cease overnight, in which case I think it will be rectified if not before, definately shortly afterwards.
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Originally Posted by TURIN
(Post 10313771)
The way I read the CAA memo issued on 24thSeptember, it looks like a UK CAA Licence will be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Except of course if you only work on G reg aircraft. Fair enough, the vast majority of the UK certifiers will be ok. However, those handling EU reg aircraft will need an EASA Licence, not after two years but on 29th March 2019.
What fun. Also, during my discussions with QA about my licence, the company are having to look at their maintenance provisions in a few places around Europe where we handled by UK operators come April as their EASA Pt145 approval could be null and void. They will have to make the decisions soon due to SGHA notice period clauses (and maybe before the hard/soft exit questions have been answered) to ensure continuity of cover, which I guess will see UK companies potentially losing revenue and job loses happening at stations as contracts are moved over to EASA approval holders that are still going to be (confirmed) part of EASA come April. Now isn't the time for the assumption that all will be OK and a resolution will be found to ensure operations continue.....the realities are happening now and plans are being made. |
To clarify why (I think) there won't be a cliff-edge for aviation...
1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly. 2. Forms 1 becoming invalid: far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs... 3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!Airbus will suffer wing production costs RR costs will also go up Dowty, etc, etc. 4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc.... 5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons... I have confidence, however seemingly misplaced, that a fudge will be found...we can only wait and see. |
Rigga, I am with you on this one to a point but still feels like one hell of a gamble with our futures. I have suggested concerns I have with the points you have made. I welcome further thoughts on this;
1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly. A.UK airlines/MRO's that only work on UK reg aircraft will not bother but organisations that maintain EU registered aircraft have plans in place to convert their engineers licences in the event of a no-deal. Some airlines have also been actively re-registering their aircraft from UK to other EU states. 2. Forms 1 becoming invalid: far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs... I suggest this could be resolved by a CAA/EU bilateral agreement similar to the FAA. I'm sure this could be done without any bearing on AMEL licences if necessary. 3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..! I don't know enough about this subject but I would be rubbing my hands together if I was in their boots! What an opportunity to take business from the UK. 4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc.... Can't comment because I don't know enough about this subject. 5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons... In the event of a no-deal, operators having fleets registered in UK won't care because they can continue to use EASA licenced engineers for at least another two years with full agreement of the CAA. Worryingly, this could play into their hands by making it easier to do away with licences all together by only having company approvals, something that we have been fighting against for years. |
^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said.
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Unfortunately I do not have permission to post a URL yet - please see interesting post today from airsound about EU contingency plan for a no-deal - page 10.
Go To Rumours & News > EC Notice & Brexit Perhaps the fudge is being manufactured as we speak! |
Hawkeye63;
I do not disagree. I work for a G reg only outfit. I see the damage being done by the uncertainly. Brexit is affecting their thinking massively of course. The MRO I know of has a cunning plan. OK for some. Is it a dogs dinner as Mr Lewis mentioning.. yes. |
I work for an international maintenance company and I'm not (too) worried... we too, have a cunning plan, Mr Blackadder.
Hawkeye - I've read Airsound's points and they sort of agree with mine. A handover of major ATC control to another centre would possibly take weeks to say the least (but just installing capable RADAR might take years to develop). We can allow aircraft to overfly our borders, but aiding them further is a moot point. If there is a real threat of a no deal - you will see planes leaving UK like flocks of Geese. |
For any UK AME who did not see it, this landed in my Inbox today, from the UK CAA...
"We have updated the information on our microsite concerning licensed engineers in the event of a non-negotiated EU exit. To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms for licence transfers to another EU Member State need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1, 2019. SW2018/247" PS; By the way, while trawling I got diverted into the CAA's Code of Practice. It was news to me that they have one, but I can now tell you that this imaginative but fictional work will provide a good laugh to anyone who has experienced at first hand the dreadful, shocking reality of dealing on a routine basis with the SRG. |
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