BBC News report BA engineers to ballot for strike action
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"You obviously have no idea how line maintenance works do you?"
Is that right?
I was probably maintaining aircraft on the line before some of you were out of nappys.
I've made my point. I'm allowed an opinion, like it or not. I'll let the petty bickering carry on but I'm not posting anymore on the subject.
Good luck with the dispute, but dont come crying when it all goes horribly wrong.
Is that right?
I was probably maintaining aircraft on the line before some of you were out of nappys.
I've made my point. I'm allowed an opinion, like it or not. I'll let the petty bickering carry on but I'm not posting anymore on the subject.
Good luck with the dispute, but dont come crying when it all goes horribly wrong.
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Working on the clock on the line will never work, yes I have had many early traps but many times no food breaks etc till the job is done, you do not go and leave passenders sitting while you take a break. The suits do not understand that and never will. If thay push for the card system then work to rule is the answer they will soon learn. 42 years mostly on the line have taught me that give and go each way is the only answer.
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Yeahbut........
Don't think I would come crying to you
Perhaps with your vast knowledge and experience gained over many, many years you would like to tell all of us what to do when all the aircraft are made serviceable ? Don't say "Read the manuals" ..........!!!! would have done this BEFORE any maintenance !!!
Your soultion of reduced numbers or a different shift system doesn't add up.
1....Reduce the numbers on shift.....OK then, What happens (which is more often than not ) when there is a large amount of work such as inbound defects , drop dead ADDs, in addition to the scheduled checks ??? ......... Result lots of U/S aircraft at the end of the Shift.
2 .....Different shift system..... OK then in Line Maintenance/ Casualty / Minor Checks the 4 ON 4 OFF uses the least amount of people to man. Any other combination to cover 24 Hours 7 Days a week will need more personnel .
My point is that a maintenance operation is not like a production line in a Factory where a set amount of work can be easily divided up between Manhours . Aircraft maintenance by it nature has a "Peak and Trough" pattern which is largely catered for by the flexibility and goodwill of the workforce.....something which is not being recognised by our current mis-management.
I would have thought that your obvious vast experience would have taught you that by now.???
You haven't revealed who you work for ( I wonder why ) and what happens in your workplace when "all the work has been completed " Has that never happened ???
Don't think I would come crying to you
Perhaps with your vast knowledge and experience gained over many, many years you would like to tell all of us what to do when all the aircraft are made serviceable ? Don't say "Read the manuals" ..........!!!! would have done this BEFORE any maintenance !!!
Your soultion of reduced numbers or a different shift system doesn't add up.
1....Reduce the numbers on shift.....OK then, What happens (which is more often than not ) when there is a large amount of work such as inbound defects , drop dead ADDs, in addition to the scheduled checks ??? ......... Result lots of U/S aircraft at the end of the Shift.
2 .....Different shift system..... OK then in Line Maintenance/ Casualty / Minor Checks the 4 ON 4 OFF uses the least amount of people to man. Any other combination to cover 24 Hours 7 Days a week will need more personnel .
My point is that a maintenance operation is not like a production line in a Factory where a set amount of work can be easily divided up between Manhours . Aircraft maintenance by it nature has a "Peak and Trough" pattern which is largely catered for by the flexibility and goodwill of the workforce.....something which is not being recognised by our current mis-management.
I would have thought that your obvious vast experience would have taught you that by now.???
You haven't revealed who you work for ( I wonder why ) and what happens in your workplace when "all the work has been completed " Has that never happened ???
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I hope to god that the BA cabin crew don't go on strike.Not that we would notice much difference judging by the sickness rate at the moment.Cabin Crew have had a very severe letter from their boss asking them politely to get off their arses and actually turn up for work if possible,social/sporting commitments permitting,of course !
Some actually popped back to work when Wimbledon finished,but there are now other reasons for not coming in.
BA are so short of CC this weekend that they have had to charter an EAC 747 to operate LGW/MCO.Premium cabins are constantly being closed off and First Class punters are being downgraded due to shortages.It really is a farce !
No coincidence that Gay Pride is taking place in London today ??
That'll be another few thousand phoning in with a sore
Some actually popped back to work when Wimbledon finished,but there are now other reasons for not coming in.
BA are so short of CC this weekend that they have had to charter an EAC 747 to operate LGW/MCO.Premium cabins are constantly being closed off and First Class punters are being downgraded due to shortages.It really is a farce !
No coincidence that Gay Pride is taking place in London today ??
That'll be another few thousand phoning in with a sore
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The Cabin crew issue has been around for years but weak
management has never had the guts to do anything about it.
The Engineers within BA are some of the best in the world but
but is now led by a man hell bent on distroying any goodwill
that was there.
I just hope Rod Eddington sees sense and replaces them with
people (and there are lots in management)who understand the workforce and let them get on with the job as they always have.
management has never had the guts to do anything about it.
The Engineers within BA are some of the best in the world but
but is now led by a man hell bent on distroying any goodwill
that was there.
I just hope Rod Eddington sees sense and replaces them with
people (and there are lots in management)who understand the workforce and let them get on with the job as they always have.
YEAHBUT,
Those posters who were "in nappies" seem to have very old heads on them. They also appear to have a very mature understanding of the airline maintenance business.
I have heard all the old "I was in Baghdad when you were in Dad's bag" tirades before, usually from reactionaries who expected young uns to know their place and not speak unless spoken to.
Experience counts for a lot but so does tolerance, understanding and the ability to listen with an open mind.
Those posters who were "in nappies" seem to have very old heads on them. They also appear to have a very mature understanding of the airline maintenance business.
I have heard all the old "I was in Baghdad when you were in Dad's bag" tirades before, usually from reactionaries who expected young uns to know their place and not speak unless spoken to.
Experience counts for a lot but so does tolerance, understanding and the ability to listen with an open mind.
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Before this goes even further down the slanging match route, can somebody please give us the facts?
What exactly do BA want to introduce in terms of this "clocking" system?
What are the objections and why?
I'm not interested in rumours or scaremongering, just plain facts and don't want to hear statements to the effect "dont trust BA, this is the thin end of the wedge" etc.
Yeahbut.
You have raised some valid points, some of which I agree with, some I dont. Traps are fine provided ALL the work is finished. It is wrong to trap off if your workmates are still hard at it. As long as you all pitch in to get the job done or progressed to a point that help is no longer needed, trap by all means.
And yes I've had experience of this. More than once I've gone back to the crewroom towards the end of shift to ask for help to find not only the "workers" but also the managers.
(BTW I personally know Yeahbut, he is well liked, respected and one of the hardest working engineers you'll ever meet!)
What exactly do BA want to introduce in terms of this "clocking" system?
What are the objections and why?
I'm not interested in rumours or scaremongering, just plain facts and don't want to hear statements to the effect "dont trust BA, this is the thin end of the wedge" etc.
Yeahbut.
You have raised some valid points, some of which I agree with, some I dont. Traps are fine provided ALL the work is finished. It is wrong to trap off if your workmates are still hard at it. As long as you all pitch in to get the job done or progressed to a point that help is no longer needed, trap by all means.
And yes I've had experience of this. More than once I've gone back to the crewroom towards the end of shift to ask for help to find not only the "workers" but also the managers.
(BTW I personally know Yeahbut, he is well liked, respected and one of the hardest working engineers you'll ever meet!)
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I work line maintenance and have to clock on and off.It is no real big deal.We still get early traps etc,it just depends on how you work it.Say that it does depend on the clocking system and what else it is being used for.
As of aviation,it is not the be all and end all.I have all the lecences,type ratings and spent the last 17 years doing it.It has got to the point were I have started to look outside the industry.It is not as bad as you think.There are jobs that compair in pay and shift patterns that you can move across to.I know a lot of people have worked hard to get were they are including myself but if you do loose your job then it may be worth thinking about something new.
As of aviation,it is not the be all and end all.I have all the lecences,type ratings and spent the last 17 years doing it.It has got to the point were I have started to look outside the industry.It is not as bad as you think.There are jobs that compair in pay and shift patterns that you can move across to.I know a lot of people have worked hard to get were they are including myself but if you do loose your job then it may be worth thinking about something new.
Usual disclaimers apply!
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BA engineers have 'clocked' in (electronically) for years, it's not a problem....END of story!!
BA have spent upwards of £100 million pounds on a new engineering computor system (when the company can ill afford it) to replace a legacy of old systems that do not talk to each other. (about time they were replaced but unfortunately with the co. in it's present state was it a good idea?)
Built into this system is 'clocking out' so what? self booking of leave and leiu days, and also I believe annualised hours. Hhmmm!! bit more tricky this one!
In the middle of this muddle come the wage negotiations, the union hierarchy were going along the lines of accepting the 3% and it was the membership themselves who said on yer bike, not with all the 'bells and whistles' attached to the new (computor) EWS (system)..... Unless it was by negotiation.
A wage claim was submitted of 10% months ago (that would get engineering back to a circa 1992 standard)
IMHO there was not a hope in hell of achieving it, BUT, it was a starting point.
To further muddy the waters is the thorny question of JAR 66 and the 'A' licence. It would appear that whatever is set for BA will be the industry standard in the UK. (so it has to be got right!........ right!)
The road to gaining an 'A' licence started with the technicians being given a short course (on type) to do ramp chks 1 and 2 (now dailys and weeklies), and 'simple and limited'. tasks (wheels brakes and that sort of thing). And to fully certify them.
When they'd got the first approval they got paid, then the company said they had to have two types, er!.....Concorde excepted, no extra payment was forthcoming, but, more and more tasks were being added to the original (17??).
Then came a shall we say reluctance to take on any more responsibility, without some renumeration.
Thence came a manager who bringeth two letters to the round table, said letters were wafted about in front of the reps of the union, and they were told that one of these letters would be forwarded to the CAA. One letter stated that the technicians were in compliance and would be entitled to an 'A' licence, the other letter stated that they were not in compliance and obviosly would have to sit (at there own cost) all the requred modules. (Now there is a word for this but I just can't quite place a finger on it.
)The reps. of the union signed the said parchment but when the disciples heard of this oh woe! oh woe! they were a tad displeased and the reps. of the union had to go back, recind the document and minute that it had been signed under duress.
So it came to pass that it's a right royal mess. Methinks all sides should take a break and sort out one thing at a time.
BA have spent upwards of £100 million pounds on a new engineering computor system (when the company can ill afford it) to replace a legacy of old systems that do not talk to each other. (about time they were replaced but unfortunately with the co. in it's present state was it a good idea?)
Built into this system is 'clocking out' so what? self booking of leave and leiu days, and also I believe annualised hours. Hhmmm!! bit more tricky this one!
In the middle of this muddle come the wage negotiations, the union hierarchy were going along the lines of accepting the 3% and it was the membership themselves who said on yer bike, not with all the 'bells and whistles' attached to the new (computor) EWS (system)..... Unless it was by negotiation.
A wage claim was submitted of 10% months ago (that would get engineering back to a circa 1992 standard)
IMHO there was not a hope in hell of achieving it, BUT, it was a starting point.
To further muddy the waters is the thorny question of JAR 66 and the 'A' licence. It would appear that whatever is set for BA will be the industry standard in the UK. (so it has to be got right!........ right!)
The road to gaining an 'A' licence started with the technicians being given a short course (on type) to do ramp chks 1 and 2 (now dailys and weeklies), and 'simple and limited'. tasks (wheels brakes and that sort of thing). And to fully certify them.
When they'd got the first approval they got paid, then the company said they had to have two types, er!.....Concorde excepted, no extra payment was forthcoming, but, more and more tasks were being added to the original (17??).
Then came a shall we say reluctance to take on any more responsibility, without some renumeration.
Thence came a manager who bringeth two letters to the round table, said letters were wafted about in front of the reps of the union, and they were told that one of these letters would be forwarded to the CAA. One letter stated that the technicians were in compliance and would be entitled to an 'A' licence, the other letter stated that they were not in compliance and obviosly would have to sit (at there own cost) all the requred modules. (Now there is a word for this but I just can't quite place a finger on it.
)The reps. of the union signed the said parchment but when the disciples heard of this oh woe! oh woe! they were a tad displeased and the reps. of the union had to go back, recind the document and minute that it had been signed under duress. So it came to pass that it's a right royal mess. Methinks all sides should take a break and sort out one thing at a time.
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Cirrus01 thats very interesting , because over here in Australia we thought that we were the only one's being offer a lousy 3 % and we're the "Lucky Country". I note also that BA have had a 1 Billion dollar lose this year, but would you believe that the big 'Q' is looking to post a $6oo million profit. Given all the turmoil in aviation over the last few years , where is the relativity I ask you. Engineers in Australia have been rejecting this meagre offer since January this year and when all the other Unions have rolled over to the Companies threats its nice to see solidarity amonst like minds. Anyway see you at the World Cup, Maybe.........?
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meal breaks are not an issue. the management will more than likely stagger the shift breaks so that there is cover over break periods. 146 fixer seems to think that clocking in and out is no big issue for line maintenance and I can say that at BAMC we've been doing it for 10 years and its no big deal for major maintenance either.
quit your bleating, welcome to 2003. its what everyone else does and if you really feel like leaving, the next company you join will almost certainly be doing it anyway.
quit your bleating, welcome to 2003. its what everyone else does and if you really feel like leaving, the next company you join will almost certainly be doing it anyway.
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A mate of mine works for BA in MAN, he reckons that its the old story that goes like this:
Work from 8 till 5 (notional) its busy between 8 & 10, quiet 10 - 2, busy 2 - 5.
Management say that you can "swipe out and go home" at 10 and "swipe in and come back to work" at 2. Thus they don't have to pay you for the quiet times. (Would you go home?)
Of course you now "owe" the company 4 hours so they can claim them back off you between 5 and 9 tonight if theres lots of work on. That of course is unacceptable but Macdonalds have been doing it for years. How many people would fancy working a split shift every day....NOT ME FOR SURE....
Swiping in and out would make this easy to admin.
Everyone knows us engineers are like firemen, a waste of money until the ac needs some work or theres a fire but if you want a job doing quickly when the clock is on you and pax/ freight are waiting its Goodwill, Goodwill, and Goodwill with a lot of teamwork that achieves it.
Its a shame managers and beancounters can't understand this
By the way this took ages to type
Work from 8 till 5 (notional) its busy between 8 & 10, quiet 10 - 2, busy 2 - 5.
Management say that you can "swipe out and go home" at 10 and "swipe in and come back to work" at 2. Thus they don't have to pay you for the quiet times. (Would you go home?)
Of course you now "owe" the company 4 hours so they can claim them back off you between 5 and 9 tonight if theres lots of work on. That of course is unacceptable but Macdonalds have been doing it for years. How many people would fancy working a split shift every day....NOT ME FOR SURE....
Swiping in and out would make this easy to admin.
Everyone knows us engineers are like firemen, a waste of money until the ac needs some work or theres a fire but if you want a job doing quickly when the clock is on you and pax/ freight are waiting its Goodwill, Goodwill, and Goodwill with a lot of teamwork that achieves it.
Its a shame managers and beancounters can't understand this
By the way this took ages to type
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you are probably qiute correct decent lae positions dont grow on trees .but take a look at ba engineering and look at the turn over rate of engs over the last years not a good picture and these are experienced and highly experienced guys .so something is wrong somewhere dont you think ?
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1: Hopefully management & staff will realise this is no time to be playing Russian roulette.
2. Both sides will return to negotiating table.
3. Management will have used the time to look up the definition of Negotiation.
2. Both sides will return to negotiating table.
3. Management will have used the time to look up the definition of Negotiation.
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I see "Members of Amicus backed the deal by 1,514 to 1,192"
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_829401.html?menu=
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_829401.html?menu=