Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow
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Perhaps I misspoke and there was no cutting mentioned in this news segment, possibly it only said that the whole barrel will be kept in inventory with future fixes in mind.
Would not be surprised if some of the news reports did say they would cut it up in advance of need.
Any time I have seen news reports on something I have first hand knowledge of I am amazed at how creative reporters can be.
Any time I have seen news reports on something I have first hand knowledge of I am amazed at how creative reporters can be.
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the whole barrel will be kept in inventory with future fixes in mind.
Cut out a few test pieces from the burnt section. Test them to see how much strength was lost (and I expect it would really not be that much).
Replace the whole barrel in the factory.
If Boeing is doing the composite repair right, using the same technique that is used in small composite aircraft since 1956, and regularly inspects this repair during the remaining life of that aircraft to collect data, potentially doing a destructive test of that repair once the aircraft retires, then this incident and the according repair may mean a quantum leap in large aircraft composite design. It would mean we finally build and repair large composite aircraft, not large aircraft from "black aluminium" anymore. This could be the long term test that should have been done 20 years ago to get confident in real composite repair.
In 20 years we will laugh about riveted titanium patch repair of composite aircraft, just like the small aircraft industry is laughing about what "the big guys" do up to now.
And maybe some day we will even learn that there are more clever ways to build composite aircraft than using stringer stiffened shells and ribs/frames with mouseholes cut into them joined by clips, cleats and fasteners...
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B787 Dreamliner
Everything seems to have gone quiet on the in-service performance of this aircraft. That could be because Boeing have fixed all the problems, although that seems unlikely as some of the well-publicised problems are not going to be quick fixes.
The airworthiness authorities are presumably happy with operations continuing, so what is the airlines experience?
Apparently the flight crews love it, the engineers are not so happy as a result of almost constant modifications, and the travelling public are happy if their intended flight on a 787 occurs at all.
Sounds a win win to me.
The airworthiness authorities are presumably happy with operations continuing, so what is the airlines experience?
Apparently the flight crews love it, the engineers are not so happy as a result of almost constant modifications, and the travelling public are happy if their intended flight on a 787 occurs at all.
Sounds a win win to me.
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constant modifications
Boeing is quoting 97% dispatch reliability - which isn't great but also isn't horrible for a new airplane (I remember one operator at 80% for the 747-400 a year after EIS 
). I'm no longer hearing the claim that the 787 is better than the 777 was at the same point after EIS so I'm guessing it's not 
.
Problem areas appear to be electrical power and APU.
). I'm no longer hearing the claim that the 787 is better than the 777 was at the same point after EIS so I'm guessing it's not .Problem areas appear to be electrical power and APU.
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Not sure if this is being reported but seems to be at least twice a week in the news with this carrier
Snags soar in Dreamliner but Air India gets 10th aircraft | Firstpost
However who ever has flown it says it is a beauty....
Snags soar in Dreamliner but Air India gets 10th aircraft | Firstpost
However who ever has flown it says it is a beauty....
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Recent composites conference, talk by Learjet/BBD about the Learjet85 development and certification - synopsis at Bombardier sheds light on Learjet 85 composites manufacturing : CompositesWorld
quote of relevance "Harter related that after processes were optimized, Bombardier faced the daunting task of achieving FAA certification. Much like the Boeing 787 and the Airbus A350 XWB, intensive use of composites on the Learjet 85 meant Bombardier had to perform extensive testing to satisfy the FAAs special conditions for certification. Much of this, Harter said, focused on in-flight flammability, post-crash flammability, crashworthiness, durability, toxicity in burn, damage tolerance and thermal expansion at interactions with metals. Results, across the board, were positive. In fact, noted Harter, composite materials on the Learjet 85 outperformed aluminum in flammability and crashworthiness tests a fact that he believes needs to be emphasized more by the aerospace composites professionals. Composite readiness testing is now complete and certification testing has begun."
Even if you discount for spin, interesting statement.
Also, with apologies for long delay in posting the following comment, I was at a major conference in the summer, where I had a chance to speak to two key (composites flammability) academic experts quoted by Amicus earlier in the thread. I posed them the question "two airplanes side by side, one aluminum, one composite, both on fire, which one would you rather be in?" One answered they would rather be in the composite airplane, the other said it made little difference.
quote of relevance "Harter related that after processes were optimized, Bombardier faced the daunting task of achieving FAA certification. Much like the Boeing 787 and the Airbus A350 XWB, intensive use of composites on the Learjet 85 meant Bombardier had to perform extensive testing to satisfy the FAAs special conditions for certification. Much of this, Harter said, focused on in-flight flammability, post-crash flammability, crashworthiness, durability, toxicity in burn, damage tolerance and thermal expansion at interactions with metals. Results, across the board, were positive. In fact, noted Harter, composite materials on the Learjet 85 outperformed aluminum in flammability and crashworthiness tests a fact that he believes needs to be emphasized more by the aerospace composites professionals. Composite readiness testing is now complete and certification testing has begun."
Even if you discount for spin, interesting statement.
Also, with apologies for long delay in posting the following comment, I was at a major conference in the summer, where I had a chance to speak to two key (composites flammability) academic experts quoted by Amicus earlier in the thread. I posed them the question "two airplanes side by side, one aluminum, one composite, both on fire, which one would you rather be in?" One answered they would rather be in the composite airplane, the other said it made little difference.
Last edited by newvisitor; 8th Nov 2013 at 16:29.
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If the replaced area of composite is going to be relatively large (more than a couple of square meters or so) I will be quite amazed if they can just brush a bit of resin on a scarfed joint and call it good to go.
Even if it is scarfed, since there will be no carbon fibers running through the glued joint, it seems difficult to believe that just a resin bond will stand up to 20 or more years of flexing and pressure cycles. I would think they would need the composite equivalent of a doubler plate across the joint to be sure.
I don't remember exactly why, but I seem to remember that for some of the very early build 787's weren't some of the fuselages disassembled and reassembled (maybe even more than once)? In that case, it seems clear that the fuselage barrels can be replaced if necessary. It may mean some new connectors in the electrical cables and hydraulic lines, but there are already plenty of those on the airplane.
Of course Boeing is very keen to show the world that it is not too difficult to repair even a large area of composite. But I really hope that they are not going to regret their decision to patch the airplane instead of replace the whole barrel.
Even if it is scarfed, since there will be no carbon fibers running through the glued joint, it seems difficult to believe that just a resin bond will stand up to 20 or more years of flexing and pressure cycles. I would think they would need the composite equivalent of a doubler plate across the joint to be sure.
I don't remember exactly why, but I seem to remember that for some of the very early build 787's weren't some of the fuselages disassembled and reassembled (maybe even more than once)? In that case, it seems clear that the fuselage barrels can be replaced if necessary. It may mean some new connectors in the electrical cables and hydraulic lines, but there are already plenty of those on the airplane.
Of course Boeing is very keen to show the world that it is not too difficult to repair even a large area of composite. But I really hope that they are not going to regret their decision to patch the airplane instead of replace the whole barrel.
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Speedbump59
They say when in a hole stop digging !
A scarf joint replicates the way the original structure transmits the load, that is why it as strong as the original structure, the fact that Boeing lay up the structure with a wound filament is all about efficient construction rather than a need from a structural point of view and in reality each layer of the wound filament could be veiwed as one very long scarf joint.
Until you rid yourself of you metalcentric way of viewing structures you will never understand composites.
They say when in a hole stop digging !
A scarf joint replicates the way the original structure transmits the load, that is why it as strong as the original structure, the fact that Boeing lay up the structure with a wound filament is all about efficient construction rather than a need from a structural point of view and in reality each layer of the wound filament could be veiwed as one very long scarf joint.
Until you rid yourself of you metalcentric way of viewing structures you will never understand composites.
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A and C:
A scarfed joint is simply a slightly improved butt joint. With no fibers going through the joint, it does not have the same strength characteristics as the surrounding material.
Your concept of an "infinitely scarfed joint" is very nice! However it precisely highlights the reason that a scarf joint would not be used: the weakest direction in a composite is in the direction that there are no fibers, i.e delamination.
In my opinion, a simple scarf joint cannot be used for this repair. There will need to be a significant lap joint most likely with some kind of reinforcement (either interally bonded to the composite or something similar to a riveted doubler plate).
The reason for this is that for a large area of repair, strains become more critical than stresses. And a simple scarfed joint will not be able to tolerate those strains (flexing due to flight and pressure cycles) for any significant time period.
I will be happy if I am proven wrong and learn something new, but for now this is my story and I am sticking to it.
I hope that we will soon learn the details of the actual repair method so that one of us will be eating crow for dinner!
Disclaimer: the above comments have not been reviewed for accuracy by the Society for Metalcentric Thinking.
A scarfed joint is simply a slightly improved butt joint. With no fibers going through the joint, it does not have the same strength characteristics as the surrounding material.
Your concept of an "infinitely scarfed joint" is very nice! However it precisely highlights the reason that a scarf joint would not be used: the weakest direction in a composite is in the direction that there are no fibers, i.e delamination.
In my opinion, a simple scarf joint cannot be used for this repair. There will need to be a significant lap joint most likely with some kind of reinforcement (either interally bonded to the composite or something similar to a riveted doubler plate).
The reason for this is that for a large area of repair, strains become more critical than stresses. And a simple scarfed joint will not be able to tolerate those strains (flexing due to flight and pressure cycles) for any significant time period.
I will be happy if I am proven wrong and learn something new, but for now this is my story and I am sticking to it.
I hope that we will soon learn the details of the actual repair method so that one of us will be eating crow for dinner!
Disclaimer: the above comments have not been reviewed for accuracy by the Society for Metalcentric Thinking.
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Speedbump59
I am guessing that you have never been involved In composite repair because you simply lack understanding of the subject, the company that I am involved with has been involved with the maintenance and repair of aeronautical composite structures since the late 1960's and myself have been involved since the early 90's. I am the guy who puts his name to the release to service paperwork......... We have yet to have a structural problem with an aircraft we have repaired.
Unlike a metal repair were you aim to have the edges of the repair very smooth to avoid inducing a fatigue crack the surfaces of a scarf joint are comparably rough and I am sure that under a microscope the fibers would look fluffy. This results in both sides of the repair being slightly porus, this allows the resin to soak into both sides of the repair and the fibers to intermingle within the joint in the same was as within the original structure.
As I have said before all critical structural repairs are subject to samples being tested to distruction by the original manufactures, these samples usually fail at 1-3 % above the average fail point for new items........ We have never had a test sample fail to meet the new specification.
The fact of the matter is that Boeing would never have built an aircraft structure using a totaly new Technology, composite structure has been about in aviation for 50 years now and bonding Technology since the Wright brothers, metal bonding since the DH Comet and Dove so the techniques for repair are well understood by all except the metalcentrics.
I have no idea what Boeing are planning for this repair but if it is not a scaf respair the wieght will go up for little structural advantage,
Unlike a metal repair were you aim to have the edges of the repair very smooth to avoid inducing a fatigue crack the surfaces of a scarf joint are comparably rough and I am sure that under a microscope the fibers would look fluffy. This results in both sides of the repair being slightly porus, this allows the resin to soak into both sides of the repair and the fibers to intermingle within the joint in the same was as within the original structure.
As I have said before all critical structural repairs are subject to samples being tested to distruction by the original manufactures, these samples usually fail at 1-3 % above the average fail point for new items........ We have never had a test sample fail to meet the new specification.
The fact of the matter is that Boeing would never have built an aircraft structure using a totaly new Technology, composite structure has been about in aviation for 50 years now and bonding Technology since the Wright brothers, metal bonding since the DH Comet and Dove so the techniques for repair are well understood by all except the metalcentrics.
I have no idea what Boeing are planning for this repair but if it is not a scaf respair the wieght will go up for little structural advantage,
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Sorry Crippen, thats a finger joint not a scarf joint. They are completely different.
