Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow
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If they patch it up and fly it somewhere for a proper repair, will they take off over central London, or M25/ Windsor Castle?
They can always close the M25 and make sure the Queens not at home, and then insist on a westerly departure
just to be safe
They can always close the M25 and make sure the Queens not at home, and then insist on a westerly departure
just to be safe
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Have you ever done a composite repair on an aircraft primary structure ? I won't dispute the economic part of your post but on the technical issues you fall well short of the mark.
I think that one far eastern airline would challenge that, and that a/c was not made of exotics
Have you ever done a composite repair on an aircraft primary structure ? I won't dispute the economic part of your post but on the technical issues you fall well short of the mark.
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I don't think that Boeing are using an autoclave as you say, I think that the big oven is just that....... A big oven, it does not use the very high pressures that are required for autoclaving. Having looked at it on u tube the structure of the oven appers by the nature of the structure to be incapable of very high pressures.
Boeing have been in the aircraft business long enough to know that aircraft will get damaged in service and simply would not manufacture an aircraft not able to withstand the rough and tumble of airline service. So it follows that they have already given field repair of the structure a very good thinking about. So if you can't put the whole aircraft in a big pressure cooker then you will have to use a resin system that cures at room temperature and then post cure it at a temperature IRO 80c. Some pressure can be applied with vacuum bags and there are a number of ways to get the heat applied in a controlled way.
A well executed scarf repair can achive a strength as near to 100% of the new item as makes no practical diference with a very small increase in weight.
There is no doubt that the size of this repair makes in more challenging than most but it is technically possible just so long as it is left to the composite experts and those with a metal aircraft background don't try to influence the process with metal repair techniques.
The economics and politics are another matter that may well scupper the repair but from a technical point of view a field repair is possible
Boeing have been in the aircraft business long enough to know that aircraft will get damaged in service and simply would not manufacture an aircraft not able to withstand the rough and tumble of airline service. So it follows that they have already given field repair of the structure a very good thinking about. So if you can't put the whole aircraft in a big pressure cooker then you will have to use a resin system that cures at room temperature and then post cure it at a temperature IRO 80c. Some pressure can be applied with vacuum bags and there are a number of ways to get the heat applied in a controlled way.
A well executed scarf repair can achive a strength as near to 100% of the new item as makes no practical diference with a very small increase in weight.
There is no doubt that the size of this repair makes in more challenging than most but it is technically possible just so long as it is left to the composite experts and those with a metal aircraft background don't try to influence the process with metal repair techniques.
The economics and politics are another matter that may well scupper the repair but from a technical point of view a field repair is possible
Last edited by A and C; 12th Oct 2013 at 11:14. Reason: Damm the predictive text ! Thank you wild goose
Assuming you're speaking of the JAL 747, the repair was designed correctly - the problem was it wasn't implemented properly.
I thought (reading elsewhere) they were going to build a temporary building structure and bring in a complete new tail section to replace the existing one?
Last edited by peter we; 12th Oct 2013 at 15:43.
I thought (reading elsewhere) they were going to build a temporary building structure and bring in a complete new tail section to replace the existing one?
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@DaveReidUK:
It seems they can do it with a 747 vertical stab, which is much larger and more unwieldy:
It seems they can do it with a 747 vertical stab, which is much larger and more unwieldy:
It seems they can do it with a 747 vertical stab, which is much larger and more unwieldy
Yes, you can get away with pretty well anything with an aircraft that isn't intended to fly again. 
I'd think the bigger challenge would be moving and aligning that big tail barrel section without the dedicated tooling (as I noted earlier).
Last edited by tdracer; 12th Oct 2013 at 20:53.
Removing the vertical stab is a pretty routine procedure for allowing airplanes to into hangers that otherwise would have inadequate clearance
I'd think the bigger challenge would be moving and aligning that big tail barrel section without the dedicated tooling (as I noted earlier).
I may be wrong, but I don't think we'll be seeing any tents and cranes at Heathrow any time soon.
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 12th Oct 2013 at 21:43. Reason: typo
First ever post on here, not sure why I can't quote TDracer. Removing a Vert Stab to fit it into a hangar, I have never heard of removing a stab of any sort just to get it into a hangar and as for being a routine procedure, do you remove the stab out doors and then bring it in.
Just for clarification, I am not talking about puddle jumpers.
Just for clarification, I am not talking about puddle jumpers.
Last edited by DHC4; 12th Oct 2013 at 21:55.
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It seems they can do it with a 747 vertical stab, which is much larger and more unwieldy:
Removing the vertical stab is a pretty routine procedure for allowing airplanes to into hangers that otherwise would have inadequate clearance
Never heard of a stab routinely removed, except in case of damage but certainly not to save some hangar space..
25 years ago I watched them, (well technically I watched them re-install, not remove the vertical stab) on the second Air Force One 747 so that it would fit in a hangar in Wichita. They didn't use any fancy tooling - a portable crane and lots of people. I didn't watch the whole thing (it was something like an all-day procedure) but I know it was completed successfully.
When I asked it this was unique, I was told "not particularly" - there are a lot of hangers put there that can take the length and width but not the height of a 747.
When I asked it this was unique, I was told "not particularly" - there are a lot of hangers put there that can take the length and width but not the height of a 747.
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tdracer is spot on, we used to back in the 70s routinely swing the Vertical Stab over on B720 & B707 aircraft to get the aircraft into the corner of the hangar.
By the way, l have recently been at a conference held by Boeing on the B787 and someone asked within Boeing if they could info us what is going on with the a/c.
He was told Boeing is not allowed to comment, it is up to the operator to give details.
Guess it lies with the insurers, airline & Boeing to come up with a plan.
By the way, l have recently been at a conference held by Boeing on the B787 and someone asked within Boeing if they could info us what is going on with the a/c.
He was told Boeing is not allowed to comment, it is up to the operator to give details.
Guess it lies with the insurers, airline & Boeing to come up with a plan.