Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow
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It has been stated here numerous times - the ELT battery is not chargeable, ELT is completely stand alone unit, it is sealed and not connected with the rest of the aircraft. There are only two wires going outside of ELT to a switch - so a pilot could turn the antenna ON but 787 (or any other aircraft) doesn't supply ELT with any voltage/current. "
Except for 406MHz which also have at least 2 more wires for GPS feeds for position data and a coax cable to an antenna. However yes, you are correct that they are not externally powered.
It has been stated here numerous times - the ELT battery is not chargeable, ELT is completely stand alone unit, it is sealed and not connected with the rest of the aircraft. There are only two wires going outside of ELT to a switch - so a pilot could turn the antenna ON but 787 (or any other aircraft) doesn't supply ELT with any voltage/current. "
Except for 406MHz which also have at least 2 more wires for GPS feeds for position data and a coax cable to an antenna. However yes, you are correct that they are not externally powered.
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The just released July 22 issue of Aviation Week & SP has extensive article on the fire. I can't retype the whole article (online version is for separate subscription) but I can quote some parts (page 23):
....Insiders also quietly note that the composite structure held up well to the fire. Compared to conventional aluminium, for which FAA tests have shown burn-through times of 30-60 sec in intense fires, Boeing flame tests exhibited longer burn-through times for sections representative of 787's composite laminate skin. The aircraft maker also points out that although the fire was severe enough to visibly char the exterior of the skin, the fire did not penetrate the surface.
The composite repair technique, although expected to be complex and costly, is also likely to be relatively easier that a similarly scaled repair to an aluminium-skinned airframe because no testing or checking will be required to match the ductility of the replaced skin with the surrounding structure. All aluminium aircraft skins are subjected to annealing, a heat treatment which makes them more workable and reduces internal stresses, and skins adjacent to those which have been affected by fire must be checked to evaluate their condition.....
....Insiders also quietly note that the composite structure held up well to the fire. Compared to conventional aluminium, for which FAA tests have shown burn-through times of 30-60 sec in intense fires, Boeing flame tests exhibited longer burn-through times for sections representative of 787's composite laminate skin. The aircraft maker also points out that although the fire was severe enough to visibly char the exterior of the skin, the fire did not penetrate the surface.
The composite repair technique, although expected to be complex and costly, is also likely to be relatively easier that a similarly scaled repair to an aluminium-skinned airframe because no testing or checking will be required to match the ductility of the replaced skin with the surrounding structure. All aluminium aircraft skins are subjected to annealing, a heat treatment which makes them more workable and reduces internal stresses, and skins adjacent to those which have been affected by fire must be checked to evaluate their condition.....
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syseng68k
That and the fact that the elt battery has a current limiting fuse in each leg
SoS:
Agreed, but to get a short circuit, you need current flow from one terminal
of the battery to the other. Even if one side were grounded before the fuse,
the other side would still be floating, so no current flow. The battery
case itself will be provide isolation to the battery internals and the elt
electronics won't be grounded to dc anywhere on the pcbs. That is, the case
will be floating w/respect to the elt electronics.
In any case, as someone else noted, even if an internal elt wire did burn
through, it would be over in a second or two and should not have anything like
enough energy to start a fire externally.
Not being just b awkward here, but none of the evidence released to date adds
up and there does seem to be an intentional information blackout...
If the 'crushed' wire was between the positive terminal and the fuse then
there is nothing to stop a dead short to the case.
there is nothing to stop a dead short to the case.
of the battery to the other. Even if one side were grounded before the fuse,
the other side would still be floating, so no current flow. The battery
case itself will be provide isolation to the battery internals and the elt
electronics won't be grounded to dc anywhere on the pcbs. That is, the case
will be floating w/respect to the elt electronics.
In any case, as someone else noted, even if an internal elt wire did burn
through, it would be over in a second or two and should not have anything like
enough energy to start a fire externally.
Not being just b awkward here, but none of the evidence released to date adds
up and there does seem to be an intentional information blackout...
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SNEAKY CIRCUITS ??
If the 'crushed' wire was between the positive terminal and the fuse then there is nothing to stop a dead short to the case.
1) somewhere in the numerous junction boxes/electrcial load /transfer/boxes and remote switching could be a sneak circuit- by moisture or by abrasion, etc. That would put up to 32 volts from either of two " main" batteries on perhaps the normal isolated cockpit/ data lines to ELT ???
2) early mention of ' sparks" in the A/C unit somewhere- but not clear when. Ground power was connected- but turned off at pad supposedly. IF true that sparks were noticed AFTER ground power disconnected- a whole new story.
IF sparks when connected- then why wasn't it checked out. ( unless there is nothing in check lists for sparks in A/C ???
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is also likely to be relatively easier that a similarly scaled repair to an aluminium-skinned
From yesterday's earnings call
Got to be honest overall they were pretty unconcerned about this situation and re the repair a specific question was asked :-
<Q - Josh Freed>: All right. Thank you.
Our next question is from Josh Freed with the Associated Press. Please go ahead.
<Q - Josh Freed>
: Hi, there. On the Heathrow 787, can you say whether Boeing is going to pay for that warranty and
conduct a warranty repair, pay for the repair under warranty and pay for it? And then more big picture, can you say sort
of where that fits in with your kind of readiness to carry out repairs like that? I mean, is that something that you guys
are figuring you'll do in-house? Is that more of a contractor thing? How should we think about how future hull repairs
will be done on 787s?
conduct a warranty repair, pay for the repair under warranty and pay for it? And then more big picture, can you say sort
of where that fits in with your kind of readiness to carry out repairs like that? I mean, is that something that you guys
are figuring you'll do in-house? Is that more of a contractor thing? How should we think about how future hull repairs
will be done on 787s?
<A - W. James McNerney>
: Well, any hull has – gets dinged up, okay? With lots of customers over – and we do have
warranty programs that cover a lot of this. This specific incident you're talking about, I assume, was Ethiopian.
warranty programs that cover a lot of this. This specific incident you're talking about, I assume, was Ethiopian.
<Q - Josh Freed>
: Yeah.
<A - W. James McNerney>
: And, yeah, and we're in discussions with them right now about how to handle that. We
want to make sure they are in agreement with our approach. We have – for the last five or six years, we've thought
about how to repair composite structures when they are damaged and we will obviously honor any and all warranty
obligations as we do that. And typically both we and the carrier have insurance that back this up. So this – if the
question eventually gets to a financial impact, there will be very little.
want to make sure they are in agreement with our approach. We have – for the last five or six years, we've thought
about how to repair composite structures when they are damaged and we will obviously honor any and all warranty
obligations as we do that. And typically both we and the carrier have insurance that back this up. So this – if the
question eventually gets to a financial impact, there will be very little.
<Q - Josh Freed>
: Sure. And is that a repair that you folks would typically carry out in-house? Or does that – or do
you expect that future hull repairs would be done more by third parties?
you expect that future hull repairs would be done more by third parties?
<A - W. James McNerney>
: I think typically as we introduce new airplanes, we disproportionately do the repair. But
over time, the industry learns how to do the repair, and we work with other maintenance and repair operations because
it benefits our customers to have decentralized capability around the world. I think in this case, we will have, I think,
Ethiopia in this case because it's a very new model, very new airplane type, who rely on us disproportionately for the
advice on how to handle it.
over time, the industry learns how to do the repair, and we work with other maintenance and repair operations because
it benefits our customers to have decentralized capability around the world. I think in this case, we will have, I think,
Ethiopia in this case because it's a very new model, very new airplane type, who rely on us disproportionately for the
advice on how to handle it.
<Q - Josh Freed>: All right. Thank you.
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Cappt
I started thirty-five years ago in the aircraft maintenance business repairing metal aircraft, the last twenty years I have been increasingly involved in composite repair and in my view the Boeing statement has a good foundation in truth.
To the metalcentric ways of thinking that pervade this business I can see how you might come to this conclusion but the repair techniques required for composite structures are very different and should not be seen from a "this is how we do a metal repair" point of view.
To the metalcentric ways of thinking that pervade this business I can see how you might come to this conclusion but the repair techniques required for composite structures are very different and should not be seen from a "this is how we do a metal repair" point of view.
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syseng68k
Agreed, but to get a short circuit, you need current flow from one terminal
of the battery to the other. Even if one side were grounded before the fuse,
the other side would still be floating, so no current flow.
of the battery to the other. Even if one side were grounded before the fuse,
the other side would still be floating, so no current flow.
The first announcement we had was that the battery seems to have sustained pre-fire damage and the crushed wire finding came later. Is that still the case?
My statement above was based on a scenario where the crushed wire, from the time of assembly, was a passive and isolated path to the casing until such time as the cell burst and exposed the anode or cathode to the ELT casing. If the crushed wire was the opposite polarity to the part of the battery that had become exposed then, current will flow.
This, of course, assumes that the battery did rupture at some point. As you correctly point out, a crushed wire itself, will not complete the circuit.
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Is it possible that what is being reported as a 'wire' could actually be two wires sleeved together and forming the flying lead from the battery pack?
If that is the case then pinching that may be all you need to short the battery. Trouble with that is I can't imagine that there wasn't a fuse within the battery, so it should still be protected against a short circuit.
Assuming the cause was thermal runaway in the lithium battery, and I can't think how else there was enough fuel to keep a fire going long enough to do the damage, then I think we are left with a failure that somehow didn't draw a high enough current to blow the fuse but was high enough to heat the battery fairly significantly.
That, combined with a very hot day, a closed up airplane and the ELT located in the crown could easily have got the battery temperature to over 60 deg C which is all it takes apparently!
If that is the case then pinching that may be all you need to short the battery. Trouble with that is I can't imagine that there wasn't a fuse within the battery, so it should still be protected against a short circuit.
Assuming the cause was thermal runaway in the lithium battery, and I can't think how else there was enough fuel to keep a fire going long enough to do the damage, then I think we are left with a failure that somehow didn't draw a high enough current to blow the fuse but was high enough to heat the battery fairly significantly.
That, combined with a very hot day, a closed up airplane and the ELT located in the crown could easily have got the battery temperature to over 60 deg C which is all it takes apparently!
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Fox News scrawl (apologies) says its the ELB. I think ... Now it's time for sport.
Apologies for iPad posting.
Apologies for iPad posting.
DWS:
Abrasion, loose terminals, crimps or other electrical problem generating
enough heat to cause a fire. I think that's a much more likely scenario, as the
energy density required to set light to the composite would be quite high
(otherwise it has no business being used in a transport a/c) and need to be
sustained for some time to cause what is reported to be major damage, enough
to scorch the outer skin. What materials sustained the fire, once started ?.
The elt batteries are not in that class really, but ok, if we suspend critical
facilities for a moment, what was adjacent to the elt to spread / aggravate
a minor fire into a fairly major one ?. Does anyone have links to a pic of the
elt installation in the a/c, or just a pic of the internals around that area ?.
Would be very helpful to have that...
1) somewhere in the numerous junction boxes/electrcial load /transfer/boxes
and remote switching could be a sneak circuit- by moisture or by abrasion,
etc. That would put up to 32 volts from either of two " main" batteries on
perhaps the normal isolated cockpit/ data lines to ELT ???.
and remote switching could be a sneak circuit- by moisture or by abrasion,
etc. That would put up to 32 volts from either of two " main" batteries on
perhaps the normal isolated cockpit/ data lines to ELT ???.
enough heat to cause a fire. I think that's a much more likely scenario, as the
energy density required to set light to the composite would be quite high
(otherwise it has no business being used in a transport a/c) and need to be
sustained for some time to cause what is reported to be major damage, enough
to scorch the outer skin. What materials sustained the fire, once started ?.
The elt batteries are not in that class really, but ok, if we suspend critical
facilities for a moment, what was adjacent to the elt to spread / aggravate
a minor fire into a fairly major one ?. Does anyone have links to a pic of the
elt installation in the a/c, or just a pic of the internals around that area ?.
Would be very helpful to have that...
I have posted this picture earlier in the 787 thread.
It shows a brand new spare Lithium battery for a SART (Search And Rescue Transponder). It was not being charged, it was not being discharged, there were no pinched wires and the manufacturer could not explain why it ignited, but it did. The damages to our store room and office was incredible from this small battery, probably 1/3 of the size on an IPERB/ELB. To protect the battery it had a solid end cap screwed on, see the tops of the remaining batteries, this was blown off and the battery went like a projectile around the store room denting fairly strong steel shelfs and leaving scorched painted steel in its wake before it came to rest with enough energy remaining to burn into the protective casing of the battery it is resting against.
These batteries scare me.
Per
It shows a brand new spare Lithium battery for a SART (Search And Rescue Transponder). It was not being charged, it was not being discharged, there were no pinched wires and the manufacturer could not explain why it ignited, but it did. The damages to our store room and office was incredible from this small battery, probably 1/3 of the size on an IPERB/ELB. To protect the battery it had a solid end cap screwed on, see the tops of the remaining batteries, this was blown off and the battery went like a projectile around the store room denting fairly strong steel shelfs and leaving scorched painted steel in its wake before it came to rest with enough energy remaining to burn into the protective casing of the battery it is resting against.
These batteries scare me.
Per
That looks pretty convincing. Had it ever been dropped / physically abused,
was it a manufacturing defect or what ?. Compared to the size of the bricks,
those batteries look much larger than the elt type. Are they the same type
and chemistry, or for a different application ?. You said transponder and the
elt doesn't transpond.
I guess this must also have been reported to the safety authorities, so what
was their reaction ?...
was it a manufacturing defect or what ?. Compared to the size of the bricks,
those batteries look much larger than the elt type. Are they the same type
and chemistry, or for a different application ?. You said transponder and the
elt doesn't transpond.
I guess this must also have been reported to the safety authorities, so what
was their reaction ?...
The batteries were taken straight out of the box and put on shelves, they were airfreighted! to us and we could not find anything wrong with the boxes. We reported the incident to the manufacturer of the SART and sent them the affected battery which they in turn passed on to the battery manufacturer. The only feedback we got was that they could not find any faults. I left the company a few months later, unrelated.
That particular battery is now obsolete so I am unable to find any dimensions or chemical composition data. Happened about 8 years ago.
And yes, this was a RADAR transponder.
Per
That particular battery is now obsolete so I am unable to find any dimensions or chemical composition data. Happened about 8 years ago.
And yes, this was a RADAR transponder.
Per
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Syseng68k
While everyone is hypothesising.... take the report from Ancient Mariner about a "small battery, probably 1/3 of the size on an IPERB/ELB" so scale it up to a much larger battery and put that battery in a strong metal container that has its hermetic seal compromised by crushed power wire(s). The repeated heat from the sun on a hot day expands the metal box and eventually the compromised insulation allows a short while the same heat has already taken the battery to critical temperature. The energy release is inside a hermetically sealed box with the exception of the break caused by the same crushed wire(s). All the exothermic energy that led to Ancient Mariner's battery flying around the room is now focused in a jet through the break in the hermetic seal of the ELT. Effectively the ELT could become a self fuelling blow torch anchored to the crown of the fuselage as the battery goes into thermal runaway.
From Battery fires: keeping the Li-ion caged | Aviation International News
"Thermal runaway can occur when the battery self-heats, which can happen when electrolyte reaches temperatures as low as 158 to 194 degrees F (70 to 90 degrees C), according to the FPRF report. Runaway accelerates quickly at higher temperatures, and the greater the charge in the battery, the faster runaway happens. Temperatures during a runaway can reach 1,110 degrees F (600 degrees C). The battery cells will also experience increased pressure, venting or popping of the cell, possible ignition of cell gases, possible ejection of cell contents and propagation to adjacent cells.According to the FPRF report,
“Venting of isolated small cells (cellphone cells and smaller) seldom results in flame ignition. This is likely due to the limited volumes of vent gases released from these cells–that is, the gases become diluted before ignition can occur. In comparison, ignition of vent gases from 18650 and larger cells [used in some laptops] is fairly common: these cells contain more electrolyte (more fuel), and are usually used in multi-cell battery packs. If the flow of vent gases is ‘restricted’ due to the configuration of a vent port (typical in hard case cells), flames emanating from the cell will be highly directional (flames from 18650 cells are often described as ‘torch-like’)."
My bolding.
That description could explain the damage and the heat in the area of the Ethiopian 787 ELT.
Addition:
A photo of a laptop with a thermal runaway from Lithium-ion Safety Concerns ? Battery University
Abrasion, loose terminals, crimps or other electrical problem generating
enough heat to cause a fire. I think that's a much more likely scenario, as the
energy density required to set light to the composite would be quite high
(otherwise it has no business being used in a transport a/c) and need to be
sustained for some time to cause what is reported to be major damage, enough
to scorch the outer skin. What materials sustained the fire, once started ?.
The elt batteries are not in that class really, but ok, if we suspend critical
facilities for a moment, what was adjacent to the elt to spread / aggravate
a minor fire into a fairly major one ?. Does anyone have links to a pic of the
elt installation in the a/c, or just a pic of the internals around that area ?.
Would be very helpful to have that...
enough heat to cause a fire. I think that's a much more likely scenario, as the
energy density required to set light to the composite would be quite high
(otherwise it has no business being used in a transport a/c) and need to be
sustained for some time to cause what is reported to be major damage, enough
to scorch the outer skin. What materials sustained the fire, once started ?.
The elt batteries are not in that class really, but ok, if we suspend critical
facilities for a moment, what was adjacent to the elt to spread / aggravate
a minor fire into a fairly major one ?. Does anyone have links to a pic of the
elt installation in the a/c, or just a pic of the internals around that area ?.
Would be very helpful to have that...
From Battery fires: keeping the Li-ion caged | Aviation International News
"Thermal runaway can occur when the battery self-heats, which can happen when electrolyte reaches temperatures as low as 158 to 194 degrees F (70 to 90 degrees C), according to the FPRF report. Runaway accelerates quickly at higher temperatures, and the greater the charge in the battery, the faster runaway happens. Temperatures during a runaway can reach 1,110 degrees F (600 degrees C). The battery cells will also experience increased pressure, venting or popping of the cell, possible ignition of cell gases, possible ejection of cell contents and propagation to adjacent cells.According to the FPRF report,
“Venting of isolated small cells (cellphone cells and smaller) seldom results in flame ignition. This is likely due to the limited volumes of vent gases released from these cells–that is, the gases become diluted before ignition can occur. In comparison, ignition of vent gases from 18650 and larger cells [used in some laptops] is fairly common: these cells contain more electrolyte (more fuel), and are usually used in multi-cell battery packs. If the flow of vent gases is ‘restricted’ due to the configuration of a vent port (typical in hard case cells), flames emanating from the cell will be highly directional (flames from 18650 cells are often described as ‘torch-like’)."
My bolding.
That description could explain the damage and the heat in the area of the Ethiopian 787 ELT.
Addition:
A photo of a laptop with a thermal runaway from Lithium-ion Safety Concerns ? Battery University
Last edited by Ian W; 25th Jul 2013 at 22:27. Reason: Add photo
Ian W:
I'm going to look b awkward again, but laptop batteries are rechargeable and
use a different chemistry. We all know some laptop batteries have had issues,
but it's not really relevant to this thread.
Ancient Mariner's post (thanks) triggered memories from years ago about
the volatility and safety of early lithium batteries, primary non rechargeable
types, but haven't heard any reports for years in that respect. My guess
is that the unsafe chemistries from years ago are no longer used. The cells
used in the elt are lithium manganese, nothing like the lithium ion types used
in laptops. The lithium managanese types are also the most common chemistry used
for consumer products, lithium coin cells etc, which are well proven and safe.
Good overview in a Wikipedia article here:
Lithium battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm going to look b awkward again, but laptop batteries are rechargeable and
use a different chemistry. We all know some laptop batteries have had issues,
but it's not really relevant to this thread.
Ancient Mariner's post (thanks) triggered memories from years ago about
the volatility and safety of early lithium batteries, primary non rechargeable
types, but haven't heard any reports for years in that respect. My guess
is that the unsafe chemistries from years ago are no longer used. The cells
used in the elt are lithium manganese, nothing like the lithium ion types used
in laptops. The lithium managanese types are also the most common chemistry used
for consumer products, lithium coin cells etc, which are well proven and safe.
Good overview in a Wikipedia article here:
Lithium battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For the umpteenth time !
and in a sealed environment, there wouldn't be enough oxygen to sustain a fire long enough (if one even started inside the ELT), that would burn through the enclosure.
ELT batteries are NOT chargeable
ELT is not normally connected to Aircraft electrical system- note I said NORMALLY - but ' sneak" circuits due to poor grounding, flaky connections, crossed wires, etc ** could ** possibly exist. Battery protection diodes can fail for example internally, etc. LI-x fires can be like a cutting torch.
Model airplane LI-x batteries can and do catch fire if abused/shorted/etc but they ARE rechargeable.
