Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 208
Likes: 94
From: Canada
ELT - a good idea in any and all aircraft
It is self contained and there to help SAR teams get to you in the event of a crash. Of course you are right in that most all commercial operators have satellite tracking regardless of control zone type. What if aircraft power is lost suddenly or standard communication equipment fails? Or what about a sudden event where the crew could not get out a distress call?
Modern 406 ELTs transmit exact position for an extended period of time. Very useful if one ever had to ditch and was floating around in the sea. Also useful regardless because the ELT will outlast any other electrical communications after an event.
Bottom line: one faulty ELT is hardly cause to discuss getting rid of them all together on scheduled airliners.
Modern 406 ELTs transmit exact position for an extended period of time. Very useful if one ever had to ditch and was floating around in the sea. Also useful regardless because the ELT will outlast any other electrical communications after an event.
Bottom line: one faulty ELT is hardly cause to discuss getting rid of them all together on scheduled airliners.
Joined: Aug 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 9,346
Likes: 2,187
From: Texas
I wonder if Boeing EE's are tracing the route of electrons from the ground power receptacle throughout the aircraft to see how current could leak into the ELT circuit. Let us suppose that they find something that allows a stray voltage to wander here or there. Hmmm.
Other than putting all ELT's in the bin, as some Aussies seem to suggest, maybe one could return the ELT to the condition of entirely isolated from all of the aircraft elecrical systems. This would lead to a pre flight test where a CC or maintenance crew accesses the ELT test switch, and either confirms the light or the flight deck crew are listening up on the ELT's freq and confirm via intercom good test or bad.
Yes, it's a crew coordination drill, but you don't need an ELT unless you are intending to fly in the first place. You always fly as a crew. It may also be in the too hard category, in terms of getting access to a test switch from inside the cabin.
Just thinking aloud here ...
Other than putting all ELT's in the bin, as some Aussies seem to suggest, maybe one could return the ELT to the condition of entirely isolated from all of the aircraft elecrical systems. This would lead to a pre flight test where a CC or maintenance crew accesses the ELT test switch, and either confirms the light or the flight deck crew are listening up on the ELT's freq and confirm via intercom good test or bad.
Yes, it's a crew coordination drill, but you don't need an ELT unless you are intending to fly in the first place. You always fly as a crew. It may also be in the too hard category, in terms of getting access to a test switch from inside the cabin.
Just thinking aloud here ...
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
From: Boston
SOS:
This could point to environment as well, is the 787 ELT subject to deeper temperature cycles due to it's location compared to other aircraft?
The larger the temperature swing the more mechanical stress there is.
Wonder how hot the unit gets when parked in the sun in Africa?
I can only imagine that if the beacon is the cause of the fire, it somehow suffered some mechanical damage either inflight or during manufacture and installation.
The larger the temperature swing the more mechanical stress there is.
Wonder how hot the unit gets when parked in the sun in Africa?
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: UK
Suggesting that these things are switched off rather than removed, suggests that there may be a problem with their operation rather than their manufacture or installation.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: redmond
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
My reading of the AAIB safety recommendations is that it is only the fixed ELT that is required to be switched off and NOT the portable devices or those attached to life rafts.
Could that be because they are different units or because they are not located in close proximity to a composite structure and are difficult to access in flight?
I take some poster's points about a crew in flight having a time advantage over the ground firefighting crews when tackling the fire. But reading about the firefighting efforts in the report, I doubt it would be easy for crew members to do this in flight given that the firefighters had to hack away at ceiling panels to tackle the fire with water after failing to control it with halon extinguishers.
This could have been extremely nasty!
Could that be because they are different units or because they are not located in close proximity to a composite structure and are difficult to access in flight?
I take some poster's points about a crew in flight having a time advantage over the ground firefighting crews when tackling the fire. But reading about the firefighting efforts in the report, I doubt it would be easy for crew members to do this in flight given that the firefighters had to hack away at ceiling panels to tackle the fire with water after failing to control it with halon extinguishers.
This could have been extremely nasty!
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: Eastern Anglia
I wonder if Boeing EE's are tracing the route of electrons from the ground power receptacle throughout the aircraft to see how current could leak into the ELT circuit. Let us suppose that they find something that allows a stray voltage to wander here or there. Hmmm.
I presume it has an external antenna? I hope nobody did a bad thing with antenna grounding.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
The Bulletin doesn't recommend just turning the unit off, it recommends making it inert. Big difference.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas NV.
Murphy, on smaller aircraft (think King Air, small jet) they are usually aft of the pressure bulkhead in the tail. On larger aircraft (think G-IV and up) they are usually inside the pressure vessel, to prevent cold soak problems on long flights.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: ---------->
Having just experienced the Dream Maker and the Thomson Premier Club product to Orlando, all I can say as a passenger is WOW!
My vacuum is noisier than a full load departure compared from the forward cabin and the pressurisation meant that after a nine hour flight we arrived amazingly refreshed!
For me, this aeroplane is frankly brilliant. No smoke, no fires and no drama! Loved the HUD for the crew!
Thomson have it 100% commercially aligned with the market. Premium it certainly is!
My vacuum is noisier than a full load departure compared from the forward cabin and the pressurisation meant that after a nine hour flight we arrived amazingly refreshed!
For me, this aeroplane is frankly brilliant. No smoke, no fires and no drama! Loved the HUD for the crew!
Thomson have it 100% commercially aligned with the market. Premium it certainly is!
The 787 and the A380 are remarkably quieter than the aircraft they are replacing.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: UK
Ban Lithium-anything batteries from ANY airborne system!!!!
AAIB recommends review of all lithium-powered ELTs after 787 fire | Reuters
AAIB recommends review of all lithium-powered ELTs after 787 fire | Reuters
Last edited by ECAM_Actions; 18th July 2013 at 17:52.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
Ban Lithium-anything batteries from ANY airborne system!!!!
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 238
Likes: 7
From: London
The guilt or innocence of the ELT will become clear in due course.
Of more concern are the problems that the firefighter(s) had in getting to the fire and extinguishing it.
Also, the lack of detail of the damage is interesting (I still await the videos of the fire and the close-up photos).
Of more concern are the problems that the firefighter(s) had in getting to the fire and extinguishing it.
Also, the lack of detail of the damage is interesting (I still await the videos of the fire and the close-up photos).
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,609
Likes: 0
From: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
When we installed the ELT on the '380 the most "difficult" part was wrapping the antenna feeds with fireproof material to ensure that the installation as a "whole " met regulation re-fire/heat resistance.
It seems a somewhat moot point that there is no airframe insulation in that self same area of the 787 by design....
It seems a somewhat moot point that there is no airframe insulation in that self same area of the 787 by design....
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: Eastern Anglia
If these are now catching fire without an external ignition source, it's not good
Edit to add link:
http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/comm...06_AFN_ELT.pdf
Last edited by fenland787; 18th July 2013 at 18:41.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: on an island
Also, the lack of detail of the damage is interesting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
From: Oakland, CA
fully agree if the aircraft lies scattered in million pieces on the ocean floor. But if it sits in one piece on the ramp with localized fire damage and fully accessible, I would expect a more informative press release by now.