Anyone thought of studying an MBA?
I've thought about it many times.
Then realised that in our industry the benefits are tenuous, whilst I could buy and read all the textbooks for well under £1k, leaving the other £20k of the course fees to blow on hats. Or borrow them all from a good library, allowing me to spend the £1k on beer.
It *may* be useful for somebody who has no management experience, but considerable industry experience, and wants to make that sort of career move. Maybe. I'm not convinced - personally I think that you're more likely to get a management job on the back of a good specialist MSc from somewhere like Cranfield.
There are however if you're interested, some specialist aviation management MBAs - Brunel's one is obviously targetted at the Heathrow community for example. Being serious, I've no doubt that this study would allow me, or many other aviation managers, to understand our jobs better. But, equally taking the time to cherry pick and self-study the important stuff, would be much less expensive of time and money, and probably work as well - for me personally.
I asked my wife the question (she does have an MBA) and she reckons that the biggest benefit is the year-long networking opportunity with the people who may be significant in your industry over the next 5-10 years. I'm not sure I buy that either - that could perhaps be obtained through active membership of RAeS committees, or the specialist MSc again?
G
Then realised that in our industry the benefits are tenuous, whilst I could buy and read all the textbooks for well under £1k, leaving the other £20k of the course fees to blow on hats. Or borrow them all from a good library, allowing me to spend the £1k on beer.
It *may* be useful for somebody who has no management experience, but considerable industry experience, and wants to make that sort of career move. Maybe. I'm not convinced - personally I think that you're more likely to get a management job on the back of a good specialist MSc from somewhere like Cranfield.
There are however if you're interested, some specialist aviation management MBAs - Brunel's one is obviously targetted at the Heathrow community for example. Being serious, I've no doubt that this study would allow me, or many other aviation managers, to understand our jobs better. But, equally taking the time to cherry pick and self-study the important stuff, would be much less expensive of time and money, and probably work as well - for me personally.
I asked my wife the question (she does have an MBA) and she reckons that the biggest benefit is the year-long networking opportunity with the people who may be significant in your industry over the next 5-10 years. I'm not sure I buy that either - that could perhaps be obtained through active membership of RAeS committees, or the specialist MSc again?
G
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Genghis
Well said. Three times these snake oil people..and that basically is what they are..have tried to train me. My kid has the best way of dealing with these social scientists...the method is well ouside the envelope of decency practiced in this form but it does involve gravity
Read this: I call this manslaughter
A Failed Culture of Safety | AVIATION WEEK
Well said. Three times these snake oil people..and that basically is what they are..have tried to train me. My kid has the best way of dealing with these social scientists...the method is well ouside the envelope of decency practiced in this form but it does involve gravity
Read this: I call this manslaughter
A Failed Culture of Safety | AVIATION WEEK
Last edited by DERG; 21st Feb 2011 at 09:36. Reason: additional
DERG, I can't see what you've posted has anything to do with anybody having an MBA or not?
I agree, it's poor management that should have been dealt with - but again, nothing to do with the specific training or qualification.
Indeed a good MBA should be teaching business ethics (mind you a good engineering degree should be teaching professional ethics, and I'm not sure that's true either).
G
I agree, it's poor management that should have been dealt with - but again, nothing to do with the specific training or qualification.
Indeed a good MBA should be teaching business ethics (mind you a good engineering degree should be teaching professional ethics, and I'm not sure that's true either).
G
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OK let me explain. Seen many MBAs in action. They seem to forget that assets in human form are not the same as machinery. I know one who is illiterate and inumerate yet can talk you into thinking your whole life is a total waste.
The problem arises that the very nature of business is unpredictable yet they persist in using statistics borrowed from other disciplines to support an argument. We have one example over on the A380 accident thread: Bayesian probabilities.
To see a graduated MBA in action is an education on how we overcame the Neanderthals 30k years ago. We hired dogs and eagles in the same way that the MBAs hire the back office clerks. Now I am not saying that the whole world is full of not so competent MBA graduates but certainly the examples I have seen in action are less than convincing.
To award a Masters degree to many of these hapless clumsy individuals is a total disgrace. Not only are they often socially dyslexic they are also a liability to the company accounts. The probabilities they were taught at school are applied to life and limb in engineering. The net effect is to accelerate the global shift of wealth away from the people who are employed already. In other words the company is a vehicle for THEIR career and the don't give a F
K about any value higher than themselves. Not a damn.
The problem arises that the very nature of business is unpredictable yet they persist in using statistics borrowed from other disciplines to support an argument. We have one example over on the A380 accident thread: Bayesian probabilities.
To see a graduated MBA in action is an education on how we overcame the Neanderthals 30k years ago. We hired dogs and eagles in the same way that the MBAs hire the back office clerks. Now I am not saying that the whole world is full of not so competent MBA graduates but certainly the examples I have seen in action are less than convincing.
To award a Masters degree to many of these hapless clumsy individuals is a total disgrace. Not only are they often socially dyslexic they are also a liability to the company accounts. The probabilities they were taught at school are applied to life and limb in engineering. The net effect is to accelerate the global shift of wealth away from the people who are employed already. In other words the company is a vehicle for THEIR career and the don't give a F
K about any value higher than themselves. Not a damn.
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It depends what you hope to get out of it. Going back to when Pontius was a Pilot, MBAs were for the select few from the likes of Harvard, Insead or Imperial. It was 2 years hard full time study and if you met someone with an MBA you knew they were business elite.
Times change.
Having done a 1 year full time MBA myself 10+ years ago at a quite well-respected school I can see the relevance to someone who is going to run a business, and I still think that when someone can take on an intensive full time course, absorb, understand and apply knowledge it says something about what they can do at work. Of course it's not the only avenue and not everybody finds it gets them to the top of the tree but the people who can't see its value are generally the types who insist on declaring themselves graduates of "The University of Life"
Today you can do MBAs from many institutions, even part time ones. It is debatable whether they give the individual much more than the same set of learning tools you'd get from an undergraduate degree. That has a value too of course, it's just not the same as it was originally and comes back to what I originally said, it depends what you want to get out of it.
An MBA may open a few doors but in my experience it's no guarantee you can change direction even if you wanted to. In some jobs it will be of little use (except maybe in broadening your horizons) but in others (business management) it may well give you the tools you need.
HTH
Times change.
Having done a 1 year full time MBA myself 10+ years ago at a quite well-respected school I can see the relevance to someone who is going to run a business, and I still think that when someone can take on an intensive full time course, absorb, understand and apply knowledge it says something about what they can do at work. Of course it's not the only avenue and not everybody finds it gets them to the top of the tree but the people who can't see its value are generally the types who insist on declaring themselves graduates of "The University of Life"
Today you can do MBAs from many institutions, even part time ones. It is debatable whether they give the individual much more than the same set of learning tools you'd get from an undergraduate degree. That has a value too of course, it's just not the same as it was originally and comes back to what I originally said, it depends what you want to get out of it.
An MBA may open a few doors but in my experience it's no guarantee you can change direction even if you wanted to. In some jobs it will be of little use (except maybe in broadening your horizons) but in others (business management) it may well give you the tools you need.
HTH
I don't know about anybody else, but I think if (say) I had the funds to go to Cranfield for a year, I'd regard an aeronautical engineering MSc as likely to take me further than an MBA - both being available.
Anybody else on that choice?
G
Anybody else on that choice?
G
My experience may not be directly relavant to many of the members of the forum as I am in South Africa, not Europe or America. Perhaps attitudes are different there.
I did an MBA about 15 years back - 2 year course - after a few years in engineering. I learned a tremendous amount - as far as I was concerned it was a great learning experience.
BUT: When I went job hunting, the local aircraft industry made it quite clear that I was no longer welcome. To quote the HR people from two major companies:
"Engineers should stick to engineering, and leave business to people who know what they are doing"
"Any combination of business and technical qualifications automatically makes you unemployable in this industry"
I ended up working for a non-aviation company in corporate finance and strategic planning for many years, before returning to aviation. The company that employed me back in aviation were at considerable pains to tell me that they had no use of my business skills, and were purely employing me as an engineer. Didn't stop them asking me to manage a department shortly afterwards....
I did an MBA about 15 years back - 2 year course - after a few years in engineering. I learned a tremendous amount - as far as I was concerned it was a great learning experience.
BUT: When I went job hunting, the local aircraft industry made it quite clear that I was no longer welcome. To quote the HR people from two major companies:
"Engineers should stick to engineering, and leave business to people who know what they are doing"
"Any combination of business and technical qualifications automatically makes you unemployable in this industry"
I ended up working for a non-aviation company in corporate finance and strategic planning for many years, before returning to aviation. The company that employed me back in aviation were at considerable pains to tell me that they had no use of my business skills, and were purely employing me as an engineer. Didn't stop them asking me to manage a department shortly afterwards....
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Genghis
Engineering everytime.
Of course here in the UK the science education in the state schools has gone down the tubes. Many schools have no qualified staff to teach math at A level.
Even the craft subjects no longer teach hand skills. The schools that are capable are now "Academys" with a selective intake.
The kids are the same but the access to those very precious years where we can educate them in the basics has gone. Thats why Europe is walking all over us.
Engineering everytime.
Of course here in the UK the science education in the state schools has gone down the tubes. Many schools have no qualified staff to teach math at A level.
Even the craft subjects no longer teach hand skills. The schools that are capable are now "Academys" with a selective intake.
The kids are the same but the access to those very precious years where we can educate them in the basics has gone. Thats why Europe is walking all over us.
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Stress
I am not surprised at all with your experience In S Africa. I think you will agree it is a very conservative place with rigid set attitudes.
In fact I cannot think of a place where the social structure is as rigid as SA.
Thats the way it is of course. You have to work with what you got.
I am not surprised at all with your experience In S Africa. I think you will agree it is a very conservative place with rigid set attitudes.
In fact I cannot think of a place where the social structure is as rigid as SA.
Thats the way it is of course. You have to work with what you got.
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Actually my own experience is pretty similar to Stressmerchant's, and I'm not in SA. I looked around for commercial jobs with my shiny new MBA under my arm but nobody was interested, they all wanted a prior track record in commercial. In the end I went back to engineering, but with a commercial/management angle, so my time wasn't wasted. My own observation is that an MBA helps an engineer broaden his horizons, because good engineers don't always make good managers.
But then I'm biased
But then I'm biased
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Dodo56
You are exactly right and sometimes it is caused by the lack of exposure to the requisites of becoming a good manager.
The value of an MBA may vary from country to country. In the USA, if you are a good engineer and you want to advance upward in the company into a management role, an MBA can be very helpful to gain the broader knowledge required. If you were a graduate engineer, how were you exposed to these topics during your engineering course of studies?
- Applied Economic Analysis
- Management & the Legal Environment - Business Ethics
- Accounting Concepts & Analysis
- Motivation & Behavior in Organizations
- International Business
- International Field Experience
- Corporate Finance
- Human Resources
- Management of Information & Technology
- Marketing Concepts & Strategy
- Strategic Leadership
- Global Strategic Thinking
Chances are, an engineering graduate hasn't been exposed to these topics in any detail, yet these are but a few important topics needed to advance into management and be successful as responsibilities grow. A good MBA program will accelerate exposure to these requisites, especially in today's global business environment.
Turbine D
My own observation is that an MBA helps an engineer broaden his horizons, because good engineers don't always make good managers.
The value of an MBA may vary from country to country. In the USA, if you are a good engineer and you want to advance upward in the company into a management role, an MBA can be very helpful to gain the broader knowledge required. If you were a graduate engineer, how were you exposed to these topics during your engineering course of studies?
- Applied Economic Analysis
- Management & the Legal Environment - Business Ethics
- Accounting Concepts & Analysis
- Motivation & Behavior in Organizations
- International Business
- International Field Experience
- Corporate Finance
- Human Resources
- Management of Information & Technology
- Marketing Concepts & Strategy
- Strategic Leadership
- Global Strategic Thinking
Chances are, an engineering graduate hasn't been exposed to these topics in any detail, yet these are but a few important topics needed to advance into management and be successful as responsibilities grow. A good MBA program will accelerate exposure to these requisites, especially in today's global business environment.
Turbine D
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yes and many managers are terrible engineers and do not appreciate engineering problems. Result being they make the place unsafe with stupid decisions.
Take anything dodo says with a pinch of salt, he has no idea
http://www.pprune.org/engineers-tech...ml#post6263552
Take anything dodo says with a pinch of salt, he has no idea
http://www.pprune.org/engineers-tech...ml#post6263552
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Safety Concerns
Yes, and what I have observed over the years is that engineering companies, those that produce highly engineered products are best lead by a good engineer that has been exposed to, either internally or through external programs (MBA), the business side of the equation. With a bright engineer with good management skills, the company will grow and prosper during his tenure at the helm. On the other hand, an engineering company with non-engineering leadership will dwell in place or flounder due to lack of in depth understanding as to what it takes to achieve product excellence.
Turbine D
Yes, and what I have observed over the years is that engineering companies, those that produce highly engineered products are best lead by a good engineer that has been exposed to, either internally or through external programs (MBA), the business side of the equation. With a bright engineer with good management skills, the company will grow and prosper during his tenure at the helm. On the other hand, an engineering company with non-engineering leadership will dwell in place or flounder due to lack of in depth understanding as to what it takes to achieve product excellence.
Turbine D
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if you met someone with an MBA you knew they were business elite
The days of a business thriving through thick and thin are done with these corperate a-holes. MGT structure is set up where an aviation professional is not given the financial inspiration to inspire a tech or driver with real experience to progress into a leadership/mgt position. Instead you end up with a P.O.S. textbook idiot who has a spineless disposition that comes naturally to him running things.
I tried years ago to climb the ranks years ago, ethics got in my way.
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"Chances are, an engineering graduate hasn't been exposed to these topics in any detail, yet these are but a few important topics needed to advance into management and be successful as responsibilities grow. A good MBA program will accelerate exposure to these requisites, especially in today's global business environment"
"Human Geography" covers most of the subjects listed and if you feel like an academic excursion this will suit an engineer better. You do not need to attend a formal course either. As most of this stuff is rhetorical it is relatively light reading with the odd stats table here and there.
Most good geography gradutes from the perceived "good" universities are snapped up by the Financial Houses. The MBAs are two a penny and at best you will hired in a back office job. Less risk for them...the employers.
Have to say much of geography is inflenced by a certain paradigm particular to that author of that book, where as an MBA is more clinical and agenda free. In my view the MBA is the perfect course for those who are more or less psychotic because they can inflict pain legally. That's my subjective opinion though.
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"I tried years ago to climb the ranks years ago, ethics got in my way."
Not everyone can fire people I agree. see above.
"Human Geography" covers most of the subjects listed and if you feel like an academic excursion this will suit an engineer better. You do not need to attend a formal course either. As most of this stuff is rhetorical it is relatively light reading with the odd stats table here and there.
Most good geography gradutes from the perceived "good" universities are snapped up by the Financial Houses. The MBAs are two a penny and at best you will hired in a back office job. Less risk for them...the employers.
Have to say much of geography is inflenced by a certain paradigm particular to that author of that book, where as an MBA is more clinical and agenda free. In my view the MBA is the perfect course for those who are more or less psychotic because they can inflict pain legally. That's my subjective opinion though.
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"I tried years ago to climb the ranks years ago, ethics got in my way."
Not everyone can fire people I agree. see above.
Actually exposure to a lot of those business subjects is in the standard MEng syllabus, which is increasingly what new engineering graduates are coming out of university with. The management content - and especially teamworking - is really fundamental to the MEng, compared to the pretty much all-technical BEng that anybody over 30 probably graduated with.
Clearly, they're still engineers with some management theory - and also they need to go and get their hands dirty at some point to really understand engineering. But, it's a pretty good product overall.
G
Clearly, they're still engineers with some management theory - and also they need to go and get their hands dirty at some point to really understand engineering. But, it's a pretty good product overall.
G